S4 Ep06: Let’s Talk About Personal Brand Impact

Have you ever wanted to have a bigger impact on your personal brand? Have you thought the only brands that can have a big impact on our culture are the big consumer brands? Think again!

Today I’m talking with Emmanuel Probst about exactly that. One of the best ideas that we talk about is how your personal brand is a vessel for an idea. It is a way to relate to people and to express yourself and who you really are. 

To do that we first define what a brand and culture is and we discuss what it means to make a measurable change in a culture. We also talked about how you find the message that your brand will be the vessel for. Then we wrap it up with a marketing lesson from Picasso. 

Emmanuel Probst is the head of global thought leadership at Ipsos (one of the largest market research firms). He also teaches brand strategy at UCLA, and he's the author of “Assemblage: The Art and Science of Brand Transformation.” 

Tune in as we talk about how personal brands can make an impact: 

[00:00] Welcome Emmanual Probst!
[03:09] How do you define a brand?
[06:52] How do you define culture?
[08:22] At what point are you considered to have a personal brand?
[11:20] Should you follow your gut or data when it comes to marketing your brand
[14:02] Is there a separation between the person inside the brand and they things that are selling?
[17:51] How can you find the core message for your personal brand?
[21:20] What roles do influencers play? 
[24:46] What marketing lessons can we learn from Picasso?

Contact  Emmanuel Probst:
Linkedin: Emmanuel Probst
Book: Assemblage, the Art and Science of Brand Transformation

• Read the Show Transcript Here

  Christine Gritmon:

  Hello and welcome to Let's Talk About Brand I'm your host, Christine Gritmon and this podcast is coming at you every single week with a different guest expert talking about a different element of branding, especially personal branding. Today's guest, like many of our guests, has experience in both the worlds of consumer brands, and personal branding.

  He is the head of global thought leadership, among other things, at Ipsos, which is an enormous market research firm. He also teaches brand strategy at UCLA, and he's also an author. He is a Emmanuel Probst. His most recent book is called Assemblage, The Art and Science of Brand Transformation. And one of the things that we're going to be talking today, talking about today, is how in order to shape culture and kind of shift the world on its axis a little bit, You don't necessarily have to be a huge consumer brand.

  There are big personal brands doing that, and there are even small personal brands having their own impact on culture in their own way. It really ripples out. You can create a personal brand that really... It's a vessel for an idea which is something that we get into in the interview. So today we're going to talk about, first of all, what we're even talking about when we talk about brands, when we talk about personal brands, when we talk about culture and cultural impact, what are we talking about there?

  We're also going to talk about impact, about how you can make sure that your brand does have an impact no matter how big or small you are. We also get into something that I know, especially the smallest of new baby personal brands struggle with, which is How do you find that idea that you are a vessel for, and how do you start having an impact in your own world?

  You don't have to think on a global scale when it comes to the impact your personal brand is going to make, but thinking about the impact you want your personal brand to make is a very important part of the equation. So we're going to talk about all of that with Emanuel Probst here today. I'm so excited to have him on.

  All right, so without any further ado, we are going to bring him on.

  Hello, Emmanuel! Welcome!

  Emmanuel Probst: Christine, thank you for having me on the show.

  Christine Gritmon: Thanks for being on. So you actually reached out to me after an episode that I had last season with Marcus Collins. We're talking about branding and culture. And that actually taps into a bit of what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about how personal brands can shift culture in a really big way.

  When we were talking before we went live, we're talking a little bit about, some of those brands that aren't just consumer brands like Coca Cola. They are people, they are places, they are bigger than just a label on a product. So first, I'm gonna back up, and again, it's a really basic question, but through hundreds of interviews, there have been, slightly different nuances on this.

  I'm gonna ask you, Emmanuel, how do you define a brand?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, the way I define a brand is the way they define the brand and they meaning the individuals, not even the consumers, meaning the audience. So it's a bit counterintuitive to put it this way, but as marketing professionals, we know so much about our brands. Anyway, we know so much about our category the way we define it. It's fine, it's useful, but the core definition of a brand is how do they define it. They meaning your audience. Definition of a brand is that. How do they perceive your company, your services, your products? It is their definition that matters most, not ours, and our job is to help shape this definition they have in their mind.

  Christine Gritmon: So one thing that we were talking about in the green room, you were pointing out how a brand is not just Coca Cola, Las Vegas is a brand, the Pope is a brand Bono from U2 is a brand. So what makes those three very different perspectives, what makes those brands, whereas, my friend's house cat is maybe not a brand what sort of makes that difference there in terms of being a brand in a larger sense?

  Emmanuel Probst: First off, they're all similar because they all try to stand out. Las Vegas competes with San Francisco, Los Angeles, and arguably destinations for gambling in Asia. And U2 competes with other bands, maybe like the Rolling Stones, just like Justin Timberlake might compete with Justin Bieber, and Rihanna might compete with other artists, right?

  So we all have a competitive set. If you will. What makes them different is their uniqueness. It's how distinctive they are. It is. It might be their distinctive brand assets in terms of Las Vegas. You can think of the lights and you can think of the strip and you can think of a Bellagio fountain. You can think of the Las Vegas sign.

  Paris is going to be the Eiffel Tower, and U2 is going to be not even about the music, but it's going to be about his demeanor and him wearing his glasses, for example. If you think about the Pope, he's very distinctive in terms of, again, I'm not getting into His religious beliefs even, but he is very unique in terms of the way he dresses and of the way he presents himself in front of an audience.

  So distinctive brand assets might be specific manifestations of a brand if you want. That can be clothing, that can be colors, that can be sounds, and then. What meaning do we associate to those different brands? And that conceptually is not different for Coca Cola than it is for Las Vegas or for the Pope.

  What are the meanings? What are the perceptions? What are the unique meanings and unique perceptions that we, the audience, Associate with these brands.

  Christine Gritmon: And that leads us very nicely into kind of the next place that I want to go with this, which is how brands, and especially personal brands, even individuals, can really impact culture. But before we dive into that, I would love to hear how you would define culture as someone who is involved in this kind of marketing landscape, which surely impacts your definition here.

  So how would you define culture?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I actually did quite a lot of research on this for my prior books. So for my first book, that was Brand hacks. And of course, I'm picking up on culture in my latest book assemblage. A culture is loosely defined world. And how we can summarize it is to say it has to do with your beliefs with customs, with the activities you engage in and with culture makers, the world around you. Specific brands help shape culture like U2 for example specific people, politics. So culture is about your core beliefs and Activities and the way these evolves around you in light of the current show and environment.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, as we know, there are certain people who have managed to have sufficiently Impactful and magnetic personal brand as to be able to impact not only the immediate people who engage with them and interact with them directly, but can have a larger impact that can impact something as large as a culture, though cultures can be all sizes, of course, as well.

  But what are we talking about when we even talk about a personal brand? Do you feel like everyone has a personal brand? Do you feel like there's a certain kind of tipping point where you become a personal brand? What kind of, what people get to define themselves as brands, is what I'm getting at here, in your opinion.

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, people get to define themselves as brands the moment they choose to. So everyone has the opportunity to create, define, grow a personal brand. Now it's up to you to do it and to decide if it's something you need to do. And with that said, in most occupations, you. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you need to sell, which means you need to create a personal brand.

  And what I mean by this is if you're a dentist or if you're an orthodontist, or if you're a lawyer, or if you're a personal trainer, or if you're a gardener, or if you're an accountant, all these are occupations where We as consumers have dozens of options to choose from. So though its not intuitive for your business and maybe your personality to create this personal brand, you're going to need to do this because those fields are just as competitive as everything else.

  THat's why a personal brand is important. That's what a personal brand is about. You create a personal brand the instant you choose to do so. and then a personal brand needs to be attuned to culture. And eventually, I guess the difference between a small and a bigger personal brand is It's ability to either embrace culture and eventually to make culture, to impact culture.

  In other words, are you jumping on the bandwagon and you're tuned to culture, which is great, which is good, which is what you need to do. And you take it a step further and you start defining culture as a change agent.

  Christine Gritmon: Absolutely. Now you work with Ipsos, which is, one of the world's leading market research agencies. So there's an analytical component in there as well. So I'm sure that you have seen, not just from the sort of gut driven vibes perspective, which tends to be honestly the way I tend to do things.

  things But also from an actual, data perspective, some people with personal brands are able to get to the point where they are really impacting things way beyond themselves. Putting on your market researcher hat for a moment. Cause you're in that world. How? How do people tend to do that to a point where it is actually statistically significant?

  What are some ways that personal change makers do make measurable change on culture from a marketing perspective? Does that make sense? I'm asking in a weird, circuitous way. But what are some ways that tend to tip that, to move that needle there?

  Emmanuel Probst: You said two things that are important. Christine, you said you do things with your guts, and then you spoke about measurement. When you're a really small brand and you get started, I think it's completely fine to do things with your gut. And in fact, you should always follow your instincts, your creativity, and building a personal brand means emphasizing who you are.

  It is not transforming you into someone you're not. And as such, you should, regardless of the data you have access to or not, you should follow your instinct and you should magnify your strengths. That's what building a personal brand is about. It doesn't matter how big your brain becomes, you should never lose sight of your own personality, your creativity, what your instinct guides you to do. Or else you just become a poster child and you really don't want to be this.

  Let's talk about measurement now. That's where the biggest brands have an advantage. Again, when I say a big brand, it might be Coca Cola, but it might be also Las Vegas, or it might be Justin Timberlake, Gordon Ramsay, and Taylor Swift.

  They're big because they have a lot of reach, and therefore they can get very scientific in terms of the outcomes they measure and whatnot.

  Silence. You said I work with Ipsos, and we're indeed one of the largest market research agencies in the world. I might surprise you, but conceptually the way you measure Coca Cola and the way you measure the impact of Taylor Swift is not that different.

  That is, how do you drive, how does the brand drive different attributes? What are the attributes people associate with the brand and what are the outcomes the brand drives. And so you measure these in isolation, but the way you do things are not conceptually that different for Taylor Swift than it be for Apple or REI or Patagonia.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, one thing that you mentioned before is that ultimately as personal brands, we are still trying to sell something, generally speaking. Whether we are an executive with a company, and we are representatives of that company. If we are solopreneurs like myself, and we are the product.

  If you're someone like Taylor Swift, where music is the product. But of course, it goes so far beyond music, in a case like hers, to become a cultural phenomenon. One thing that a lot of people really seem to worry about when they're first stepping forward as a personal brand is wondering about that balance between keeping it focused on the thing or the service or the whatever that they are trying to sell versus keeping it focused on who they are as a person. So what are some of your thoughts about how people can find that balance and about how that balance may even shift over time as their personal brand develops that critical mass that makes it magnetic?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I'll reflect on Taylor Swift and if I may on my personal experience and of publishing books. You said music is the product. And I may slightly rephrase this and say her music is a vessel for an idea. It's a vessel. It's a way to communicate the way she feels and a way for her to relate to people.

  But really what makes money is to sell tickets to her shows. Sure. She might make money from downloads, but that's literally anecdotal. If you compare, the money she makes from, basically feeling stadiums with dozens of thousands of people is the same thing in the book business. You can sell books, but frankly, the revenue.

  from books is anecdotal compared to the revenue that comes from consulting or from speaking engagements or workshops and so on and so forth. And her music is a vessel for an idea and a way to relate to people. And a book is a vessel for an idea and a way to relate to people and to express yourself and who you really are.

  And. Make yourself unique, different, and relatable at the same time so that you can sell the product. So another way to put it and to really simplify things is Taylor Swift doesn't have to sell herself in her songs. She just had to tell people the way she feels so that in turn she can sell 200, 400. 3, 000, 30, 000 tickets.

  So it's the same thing as a practitioner. If you're a cosmetic surgeon, you need to be omnipresent on social media because people will care more about your social media activity and following than they will about your qualifications. And on social media, you're going to show. your art and how your personality translates in your relationship with your patients so that then people book appointments and surgeries with you procedures, I should say.

  Christine Gritmon: I love what you said about how it's not about, the external product that is being sold so much as being a vessel for an idea. That is fantastic. That also can be really intimidating for a lot of people, you know, kind of figuring out. Go to Simon Sinek, start with why, but that's really the essence of a personal brand, really.

  I like to think of it as your job is task based. But your brand, who you are, is not task based. It is based in something deeper that is transferable between different jobs, between different skills. What are some ways people can maybe get to the essence of what the underlying idea that they are a vessel for could be when figuring out their personal brand?

  Because not everyone's going out there to change the world. Some people are like, I just want to sell stuff. But when it comes down to it, a powerful personal brand, no matter what it is you are nominally selling. is going to have a much greater impact and be a lot more flexible if you are indeed a vessel for an idea.

  So what are some ways people can get started identifying what that could be for them? Because it's inside of them, but it's hard to find sometimes.

  Emmanuel Probst: yeah, you used a an important word. You said it can be intimidating and I get that and I agree. There's a good news. The good news is in the world we live in now, in the world we live in today, it's okay to embrace vulnerability and imperfections and differences. And you don't have, not only you don't have to be perfect, but in fact, you don't want to.

  There is no longer this perception, and there shouldn't be, that success is about being tough, and being the big guy, and with the big voice, and all that. No. Just reflect on who you really are. How do you do this? Just think of the things you like to do, and maybe the movies you like to watch, and the books you like to read, the podcasts you like to listen to, and think of the attributes that define you. You don't have to go too deep. I'm not going to take you through a psychology session here, nor would I be qualified to do but really, what do you like to do? What are the colors you like? What is the type of music you like? What are the tones you like? And That is how you're going to shape this unique personal brand of yours.

  But again, I insist that imperfect is perfect. That is, authenticity is most important to people. And let me link this to very big brands. They know this, and they enable this in their marketing now. If you think of Dove, Dove is a massive brand. It's a uni level brand. It's a global brand. Dove embarked a few years ago on what they call the Dove Beauty Project, to reveal people's real beauty.

  What this means is instead of using perfect models in their advertisements, they started using everyday people. And that was a few years ago, and they continue on this trajectory. Most recently, Ogilvy, that is a large advertising agency, Ogilvy in the UK pledged to stop using Photoshop. That is to stop retouching people and pictures to make them perfect.

  So the point I'm making here is even the biggest brands in the world are embracing imperfections. And the good news is As a personal brand, as an individual, let alone when you're getting started, is you just have to embrace this. You don't have to walk it backwards from perfection to imperfection.

  You're already authentic. You're already vulnerable. You're already imperfect. So now you just have to push this forward and bring it to your audience. Just like Taylor Swift does.

  Christine Gritmon: That actually brings me to something that's been in a special interest of mine lately, which is that, big brands are starting to recognize more and more that one of the kind of hidden superpowers they can really tap into is their people. They're actual humans but that could be a bit of a tricky thing for some of them because I know the old school mentality was if our people are out there doing their own thing and being their own strong personal brands, first of all, other companies might poach them.

  Second of all, they might be, too preoccupied with building their own name that they're, neglecting our brand or whatever. But I think that's changing. I think brands are recognizing more and more that the fact that a company is made up of humans can be an incredible force. And then, of course, there's the fact that more and more brands are working with influencers who are their own independent personal brands.

  I'm curious about your take on both of those phenomena.

  The idea of activating your people and recognizing the strong, incredible, potentially very influential people who you have within your own organization, but then also borrowing influence from professional influencers. How do you feel both of these things are really impacting the way that brands can help shape culture?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah. So first, Christine, that's a very good news for our listeners today is you don't have to walk backwards. You said big brands are trying to become more personal, more authentic, closer to people. Again, if you're an individual, you're already personal. You also spoke about big brands trying to empower their people to be the voice of the brand, if you will.

  The truth is, This is very hard to scale. And yes, brands are trying to work in that direction, but it's very hard to control. And that's a problem you really don't have if you're a sole practitioner or if you're a small business with, 10, 20, 30, 100 employees, and you have 1,2,3,4,5 locations. It's a very different deal when you're Starbucks and you operate 11, 000 stores.

  From the get go, that's a problem you don't have to solve. Now you spoke about influencers and the original value proposition of influencers is that is to reduce the social distance between the brand and the audience. Silence. What this means is we like influencers because they're relatable.

  In other words, they are just like your neighbor and they live. Or at least they're supposed to live in a place just like yours, in sharp contrast with the likes of George Clooney or big personalities that we don't live like. 99. 5 percent of us, if you will.

  Now about hiring influencers to work with you, enabling that reach, be careful what you wish for.

  Number one they are following and how many people they can really reach. Look under the lid. Is that real? What is the level of engagement? They have with their audience. And number two, what is the fit between both influencers and your product? And in other words, you don't want just any influencer to represent your brand.

  What other brands do they work with? What is their personal narrative? What is their creative style? And. Does this all align with your, when your product, the message you want to convey with your audience.

  So last but not least is I would look towards smaller influencers when they're not as expensive, but also they have a much higher engagement, much better intimacy with their audience, with their followers.

  And last but not least, But they are likely not overwhelmed with brands, and therefore they will give your brand more of a voice, if you will.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, this is going to be a little bit of a spoiler for your latest book, Assemblage, but one thing that I was very intrigued about when I read some of the bullet points on it is, you mentioned what Picasso knew, and what all marketers need to learn. I'm very intrigued by that bit. So hopefully people will still go out and read Assemblage, even if they get this spoiler, but I'm intrigued by that.

  So what did Picasso, who was inarguably an incredible cultural shifting personal brand. What did he know that that we as marketers should learn?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah. By the way, Christine, about Assemblage, I have two good news. Not only people can read it, but they can also listen to the book. It's available as an Audible format. That's the first good news. The second good news is I'm not the one reading the book. And they can listen to the book without the accent

  But back to your question, Christine, there is an important chapter in this book called The Assemblers and what Picasso knew Well, the artists we admire the most, like Picasso, they're talented, but not always in the ways we think, meaning the real talent is often assembling. To deliver on the artistic vision rather than necessarily creating the art themselves.

  So what I mean by this is the likes of Andy Warhol, for example Jeff Koons today. They have plenty of people working for them. The same applies in cooking. Gordon Ramsay doesn't cook. Alain Ducasse Doesn't cook. The same applies in music whereby a famous dj, let's say like David gta, by definition, assembles samples from other musics.

  Phil Williams does not know how to read music. That's a fact. That's not gossip. He had to admit under oath that he didn't know how to read music, yet he sold millions and millions of records. Digital Kaen is the same thing. He's a music producer. So what all these people have in common. Is the pick and choose from talents, from samples, from culture, what makes sense and the symbol the samples is bits and bobs, if you will, into a new product, into a new service, into a new narrative, into a new story that they're going to bring to their audience.

  The second thing we can learn from Picasso is, yeah, he's known for his great paintings. But beyond that, he was a prolific artist, also creating china and pottery and sculptures. And the point being that he had such a wide range of products, such a wide range of items that he could sell to his audience.

  He started poor, but by the way, he died really rich. The point being is, yeah, he could sell a 50, 70, 200, 000 paintings, along with plates and lithographs that were more accessible to a wider audience. As such, he was one of the first marketers to exemplified to pioneer, I will say, the concept of line expansion.

  Christine Gritmon: So I'd like to hear a bit more about that line extension, because the thing is, when we think of Picasso, most people do really think about his paintings and stuff. And that actually brings me brings us to another point, which is that, It's not always about the one thing that you do.

  Sometimes the thing that you do that kind of leads the way allows people to discover the other things. But, line extensions, I'd like to hear a little bit more about what you mean by that. Especially when it comes to things like that.

  Emmanuel Probst: A great analogy, very relevant, I believe, is the fashion industry. In the fashion industry, when you look at Christian Dior or Balmain or Balenciaga, fill the blank, they have catwalks twice a year and they impress a very small crowd of people attending those catwalks, maybe 150 people, if that, in Paris, Milan, New York. How many dresses do they really sell? A dozen, if that. And those are really expensive and beautiful by all means, but not really practical. The point is not to sell dresses at catwalks. The point is to demonstrate the creativity to make culture. Influence culture in that process to get as much media attention as you can.

  So that in turn, you can sell in the case of Balmain, a 650 t shirt, or you can sell some perfume or some cologne or some handbag, or some ready to wear items. That are very scalable and extremely profitable. And so the point is, as a Customer, when I buy that T-shirt or when I buy that perfume, I'm being part of the dream.

  I'm being part of this aspiration, this creativity, this identity, this culture that is on the catwalk and it's my way of accessing this. So that's really. How you can think of it in terms of world architecture is you have those leading products that ironically don't really sell. They do, but not that much, but they're here to build this perception.

  It's the same thing in cooking. You have very few 3 Star Michelins in the world. In France, I think you have about 11 or 12 of them. And you have a few dozens in the U. S. That's really not that many. Gordon Ramsay doesn't make, I mean he does, but his main source of profit is certainly not that three star Michelin that he has in London.

  The point is to sell cookbooks and to sell TV shows and to sell speaking engagements and to sell workshops and of course to drive traffic in burger restaurants that are way more profitable and move way more volume down. Any 3 Star restaurant you can think of.

  Christine Gritmon: All right, so we've talked about artists and large brands and things like that and people who have become kind of larger than life, connected to this larger kind of cultural zeitgeist and shifted it with their ideas. Now let's take it down as we round this interview up, let's talk about a few things that a person listening at home, maybe they're just trying to do their business.

  They're not trying to sell out stadiums or anything like that. When it comes down to it, as humans, a lot of us do feel a calling to be a vessel for an idea. So what are a few things on a smaller scale that someone listening right now could do to get started in seeing their personal brand and seeing themselves being a bit more as, not just sales driven, but being more kind of a vessel for those ideas that they hold dear in a way that will at least shape their world and the world immediately around them.

  What are some things people can look at and start doing to get started there?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I think you want to do two things. Two things that you can do immediately. Number one, what are the five, six, seven unique attributes that define you? Or maybe those attributes are not unique in and of themselves, but they make you unique in combination. So what are the 5, 6, 7 things that you'd like people to remember about you if you meet them for the first time at a cocktail party? That's going to be the foundation for your personal brand. And then you're going to emphasize that authenticity. In terms of activation, if you will, that's where you're going to use those, what we call performance marketing and the performance metrics, meaning you're going to look At how many reactions you generated, how many people are subscribing to your content, and then lower in your funnel, how many leads you generated, it can be how many appointments you generated, and how many of those appointments did you convert.

  into a deal. And then those clients of yours, you're going to want to drive recommendations. You're going to want to drive word of mouth one because this is free advertising for you and two because people trust their friends and family way more so than they trust advertising. So you're going to want to work on this core client base if you will so they advocate and spread the good world for you So that's really how you on a very small scale.

  That's how you're going to Work out your funnel you define your brand strategy and I almost want to say if you really get started don't spend tons of time. Don't overthink it. Spend some time on this, but don't overthink this. Who am I, and who do I want to appear to be to my audience? What are the attributes that make me unique in, in combination, right?

  And then you go to markets and you analyze who's Performance metrics that I just described. Now, later on, when you grow your brand, when you become bigger, you're going to want to worry more about your competitive set and how they articulate their message and how you can difference use and how you can compete with them and all that.

  But that would be 3, 6, 9 months down the line. It's not something you need to do today.

  Christine Gritmon: All right thank you so much for all of this. This has been wonderful and definitely very inspirational, honestly.

  I'm excited to play a bigger game with my own personal brand now, and I hope everyone listening is as well. All right, Emmanuel, so tell us. Where can we find you? Why should we find you?

  And what will we find there?

  Emmanuel Probst: Really liking your questions Christine, they're clearly articulated, but also very different from what I usually hear on podcasts. Where can we find me? I'm on LinkedIn at Emmanuel Probst, and you can also find my book Assembly, which is the Art and Science of Brand Transformation. It's available in bookstores.

  Importantly, it's available on Amazon. You can buy the hardcover. You can also access The electronic version of the book and as we said earlier last but not least you can listen to the book if you want Why well because I produce ideas For brands every single day, that is, if you subscribe to my content on LinkedIn, for example, you will access tons of ideas several times a week.

  Every day you will see my comments on the largest brands and several times a week you will benefit from the guidance I provide. And why? Because I combine academic. Knowledge through my books and my studying and obviously my academic background with practitioners experience of spending 20 plus years counseling some of the biggest brands in the world.

  So I bring this knowledge and this expertise to you. I was going to say at a fraction of the cost, which is the price of a book, or even for free, if you want to just read what I publish on LinkedIn.

  Christine Gritmon: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here and I hope everyone is inspired to get out there and make whatever change, make some ripples, make an impact and who knows how far out into the culture it can ripple out. Thank you very much for being here, Emmanuel.

  Emmanuel Probst: Thank you so much, Christine. Thank you to our listeners for being with us today.

  Christine Gritmon: And thank you for listening to Let's Talk About Brand, whether you are listening on your podcast player of choice or if you're joining us for the video podcast on YouTube. Either way, please do make sure to subscribe, leave a comment or a review if you like it, and be sure to tune in next week when I will be right here with another very smart guest expert talking about another specific angle of branding.

  Bye!