S4 Ep09: Let’s Talk About Branding as an Agency Founder with Kaitlyn Barclay

Today I'm really excited because I'm so happy to have finally had this conversation with Kaitlyn Barclay. 

Kaitlyn Barclay is the CEO and co-founder of Scout Lab, which is an agency that helps startups with their branding, communications, and marketing. The focus of her work is on founders in addition to being one herself. 

Kaitlyn and Scout Lab especially work with founders who have a mission behind their work, whether it's planetary health or actual health. She works with and advises founders who stand out in their fields. Many of whom are women, people of color, and part of the LGBT+ community. 

So today, Kaitlyn and I are going to discuss the development of her personal brand, which really started with developing her reputation in the market by doing the work and absorbing as much as she could from other startup founders. She talks about what influenced her to become an entrepreneur and how storytelling is such a large part of building a brand. 

And finally, we're going to hear from her about how she put together her personal brand, how that is influenced by being a co-founder and the things that she personally struggled with.

Tune in as we talk about: 

[00:00] Welcome Kaitlyn Barclay!
[03:37] Where did your career start, and how did it get to that point?
[07:09] Why did Kaitlyn decide to work with other companies first, rather than starting her own company? And how did that help you later? 
[10:41] How did Kaitlyn's reputation get her into FitMob?
[13:21] Why is it that Kaitlyn decided to focus on building brands for startups? What is the focus of Scout Lab?
[15:50] How did Kaitlyn's personal brand change when she made the shift from consultant to agency founder?
[19:05] How does a two-founder brand work when it comes to those personal brands and how do those personal brands serve the agency?
[23:03] How does Kaitlyn help founders tell their stories?
[25:59] How does Kaitlyn help founders find the balance between professional and personal stories while highlighting their differences?
[28:22] Does a founder's personal brand help them build trust for investors and partners?
[31:00] What do you personally as Kaitlyn struggle with or have you struggled with the most in the past when it comes to your own personal brand? 
[34:06] How to connect with Kaitlyn Barclay

Contact Kaitlyn Barclay:

Website: Scout Labs
Email: Kaitlyn@scoutlab.com 

• Read Transcript Here

  Hello, welcome to Let's Talk About Brand. I am your host, Christine Gritmon and I am coming at you every single week on Let's Talk About Brand, talking to different guest experts every single week about different elements of branding, especially personal branding. If you're listening to us on your podcast player of choice, please do hit subscribe and leave a review if you like it. If you're joining us for the video podcast on YouTube, same deal. Subscribe. Let us know what you think in the comments. And of course, you can find me anywhere on social media as Christine Gritmon.

  So today I'm really excited because I've actually had to reschedule this one a bunch of times.

  I'm so happy we've finally had this conversation. Kaitlyn Barclay. Kaitlyn Barclay is the CEO and co-founder of Scout Lab, which is an agency that helps startups with their branding, their communications, their marketing, all that jazz. So she works with a ton of founders in addition to being one herself. But as you'll hear today, Kaitlyn also came up through the startup world.

  Kaitlyn and Scout Lab especially work with founders that have some sort of mission behind their work, whether it's planetary health or actual health health. She also works with and advises lots of founders who are women, who are people of color, who are parts of the LGBT plus community. She really helps founders get out there, get their great work and big ideas out there and also get themselves and their stories out there too.

  So today, Kaitlyn and I are going to discuss her journey which as you'll hear, really started with just doing the work, absorbing as much as she could, developing that reputation. before she started worrying about her brand. And then we're also going to hear from her a lot about what goes into that brand and that personal brand, especially for founders the position that a founder's personal brand takes in a startup.

  And finally, we're going to hear from her a bit about how she put together her own personal brand and the things that she personally struggled with, which may be things that you need to hear about as well.

  Christine Gritmon: so this founder right here is certainly interested to get into today's discussion about branding for founders. So without any further ado, Kaitlyn Barclay, come on down!

  Kaitlyn Barclay: It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me, Christine.

  Christine Gritmon: Thank you so much for being on, and can I just say also thank you so much for your patience. We have had to reschedule this thing so many times, mostly because of me and my crazy transatlantic move.

  Kaitlyn Barclay: I love that. Congratulations again. That's huge.

  Christine Gritmon: Thank you, and thanks for taking good care of New York for me in my absence.

  All right, so Kaitlyn, let's dive right in. I would love to hear your story. Not just what you're doing now, but how you got there and how you have built your personal brand to get to the point you are now where, You're an agency founder, you work with a whole bunch of other people to get their brand and marketing and messaging straight.

  You're an advisor for female entrepreneurs. You do all of this stuff. So clearly the Kaitlyn brand is a strong one. Can you take us through the history of how you built your brand along the way as you were developing each of these steps of your career? Not, no pressure. That's a big one.

  [00:03:37] Where did your career start, and how did it get to that point?

  Christine Gritmon: I can chunk it down if you'd like. Let's go from the start, actually. Let's go to the start of kind of the building of the Kaitlyn brand, because it's very different from where you are now. When did you first start feeling that, okay, this has got to be on my own steam now? Where did your career start, and how did it get to that point?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Yeah, I think it, it starts much farther back than when I entered the professional world. My mom was an entrepreneur. She actually, when she divorced my dad when I was five she'd previously been in finance and when she had me and my sister was a stay at home mom and. So when they got divorced, she really had to figure out what she wanted to do next.

  And what she ended up doing was taking up interior design consultancy. So she started just, designing for her friends. She said I'm passionate about this, I'm good at it, and it's driving me forward. And so she built this consultancy that grew into a really reputable interior design firm in my small town I grew up in, outside of Portland, Oregon. And she had one employee and I watched her navigate, client issues. And I knew what an invoice was at an early age. And I just watched this woman really come into her own as a small business owner. And I think that gave me the the reference point of which I molded my entrepreneurialism or the path that I wanted to take, I think. Really early on, I knew that I was interested in running my own business because I saw my mom do it. And when I graduated from college, I knew I wanted to go immediately into tech. So, I'd like done some internships in Silicon Valley worked at a number of different startups before I even graduated.

  And yeah. I moved to Silicon Valley quickly after that, and I think I got some really informative experiences working in tech, you know, working at startups that failed. I was on the founding team of a company that was able to grow and get acquired by ClassPass in 2015. I led, database marketing and customer acquisition at Levi Strauss and the e-commerce team, which was like a startup within a billion dollar organization.

  So I had all of these cool opportunities very early on in my career where I was building. And so by the time I was entering my thirties, I was ready to start something again. And that's really where I met Willow, my co-founder and we started Scout Lab.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that. So I want to back up a little bit. First of all, as a mother, it definitely makes me feel good to hear that you saw your mother do it, and it made you want to do it, too, instead of saying, My God. And she clearly was in an industry where she was the product, it sounds like. You know, her skills, a service based company.

  So that's very good to know. But also, it's interesting that you worked for all these startups because, as you said, you were always eager to start your own business, but I'm sure that working for those startups got your feet wet and helped you build your skills. I'd love to hear a bit about why you started via that path instead of just trying to start your own thing from the get go.

  And also The unique differences between working for a startup where you're there with the founder usually Versus working for a large corporation like Levi Strauss. So first, let's dive into the first part, which is Deciding to work for startups and in other big companies rather than doing your own thing right out of the gate.

  [00:07:09] Why did Kaitlyn decide to work with other companies first, rather than starting her own company? And how did that help you later?

  Christine Gritmon: How did that decision come to be and how did that help you later?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Yeah, I, I was at a dinner last night where one of my friends sitting next to me, it was like 19 years old when he like started a very successful startup. So like it is, age can be just a number. I will say, generally speaking, experience is really important and learning from people who've done it has been incredibly informative to my career.

  And I would really recommend any young person interested in entrepreneurialism to Get a blueprint for it, like find mentors, find entrepreneurs that you respect and admire, like work for people doing it. If you're not ready to do it yourself, it's like a massive amount of risk. And I think without operational acumen or understanding of how to run a business, it.

  It can also be a really inefficient process if you don't have experience. So the reason why, you know, in my early twenties I opted for startup experiences is because I think that's as close as you can get to founding a startup without founding it. And so my first boss was the head of marketing at Facebook and started this social commerce platform, Jonathan Ehrlich.

  And he was just such an incredible mentor and champion for me very early on in my career and gave me like massive responsibility for a 22 year old that just, graduated from college, but I was able to learn a tremendous amount and drive a lot of impact for the organization. And, you know, when I then went to my next thing, like I was working alongside, an ex GP at Mayfield.

  Which is these folks with storied careers, really being able to learn from them, juice all they know, and then apply my spin on how I want to show up as a leader. was great to experiment with in my 20s. And I certainly think, having been on the founding team when I was like 23, 24 was like a, an incredible opportunity.

  And I think I knew that after. In my next my next foray, I wanted experience in bureaucracy and process because I knew that was a huge gap of mine, which is why I went from, the company FitMob, that was acquired by ClassPass. I went to Levi Strauss because I wanted to fill in that gap.

  And I realized very quickly like, Understood the blueprint understood the way that process exists at this scale and then, moved to New York and was ready to start my own thing again. I can't understate how important mentorship is. I think early on in your career mentorship of more experienced people is crucial. I think as you go along in your career, peer-to-peer mentorship becomes more important. And so that was really informative and instrumentive to, where I am today and certainly how I've been able to mold myself, given the feedback of the people around me, which has really been, amazing.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that I would love to hear a little bit more about how you came to be part of Fitmob. It sounds like that was your first hands on entrepreneurial experience. So I'd love to hear how that came to be. And also, did you have to leverage your personal brand in a different way as someone who was really part of that founding team versus when you were just working for startups?

  Or was it, the same, this was just another opportunity that it helps open for you? What part did your personal brand play in entrepreneurship in that first venture FitMob? And we'll get to your current venture in a bit, because I'm sure it's a slightly different situation.

  [00:10:41] How did Kaitlyn's reputation get her into FitMob?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: So I think what many people call personal branding now is also what you would call reputation. And I think many people want a personal brand, but I think far fewer than those who know how important reputation is writ large. Your reputation is how someone refers you to like a job or invites you to a dinner party because they heard through the grapevine that you're a great person.

  And so I got the opportunity to go to Fitmob because of the previous mentor I had my boss at Copious which was like a marketplace in the social commerce industry referred me in and was like, Hey this person has been instrumental to the growth of this marketplace fitmob was a multi sided marketplace.

  And so when I met with the CEO who had this idea, but it wasn't really, it was still being whiteboarded. We like picked up the marker together and really made something special as an initial. kind of thesis and we're able to build that together. So that's how I got referred in. But I will say like reputation is just so incredibly important.

  And I think people want a personal brand and they think about that as like the externalization of self. Am I on podcasts or like large speaking opportunities? Am I like writing and being published? But I think that's just like a multiple of reputation and everyone should, not everyone perhaps needs a personal brand, but everyone needs to think very critically and seriously about their reputation. And so I think that early on, like I was just building reputation and it wasn't until later on when I started my own thing. And certainly that was like a part of FitMob, but then expanded much more when I started Scout Lab or personal brand.

  Was a little bit more important because I needed people to find me just not through my network, but through other like public domains. And so there's like nuance there, but yeah, early on, I was really fixated on building things and being known for my work ethic and my impact at startups. And I think, throughout the course of my early career, that was how I got exposure to these incredible opportunities because I was just known as this doer.

  If you have Whatever budget, whatever resource constraints, whatever insane OKRs, I'll just get it done. And I think that's the type of builder you need at early-stage startups.

  Christine Gritmon: Absolutely. So just doing the work, building that reputation before you worry about brand which can be more external facing. Now, brand is something that you actually currently, and also in the past, help other people with. So after going to Levi Strauss for a little bit. You, or actually during overlapping with that time I know that you were brand and growth consultant before founding your agency focusing on helping startups.

  [00:13:21] Why is it that Kaitlyn decided to focus on building brands for startups? What is the focus of Scout Lab?

  Christine Gritmon: Now you've done a bunch of things with startups. What made you focus in on that brand consulting element? What lit you up about it? And what did you learn maybe working on the other side of it helping other startups to do it.

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Yeah, it's such a good question. And I think that, whether we're talking about brand building with respect to an organization or brand building with respect to a person or an executive, you're thinking about similar pillars, let's say. And so in 2016, a few things were happening. One, I had just moved to New York and met my co founder.

  And we were both really lit up about the same things. It was just after the 2016 election where I think a lot of marketers were really galvanized to use their superpowers for good. And we saw like reputation at scale, take a turn for the worst. And I think some really like violent storytelling that we weren't proud to see propagate at the scale it was. And so when we, when Willow and I, my co founder got together we said one, like storytelling is so important, right? Even just even money capitalizes the stories we hear and ingest in our culture. So how might we be able to be a part of uplifting stories that we're really proud of?

  And that means the stories of executives that are really like walking the walk. And so that was really the blueprint for Scout Lab because brand also is this very ephemeral thing. Everyone wants one, but no one knows what it is. And my co founder and I having, having built several brands at that point in our career, she was early on at Airbnb. I just went through the. Rebrand for Levi Strauss launched their women's line. So we had like very differing scales of which we've reinvented brand. We said we want to do this, but for organizations that are really trying to create access where it hasn't historically existed, like tap into communities at the margin that have been ignored by industry.

  That is really important. Like healthcare, like FinTech, like planetary health. And that was really the blueprint of which we started Scout Lab, making very digestible deliverables associated with brand building and delivering it for high growth startups and the executives that work for them.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, how did you shift your personal brand, if at all, between being a consultant and being an agency founder? Because a lot of the function you're performing might be similar, maybe not. But I imagine when you made the decision to say, you know what, I'm no longer a consultant.

  [00:15:50] How did Kaitlyn's personal brand change when she made the shift from consultant to agency founder?

  Christine Gritmon: We are founding an agency. That's a shift there. So I'd love to hear a bit behind that shift when you decided to change the way you're doing business and also how you changed the way you present yourself and your personal brand as a consultant versus as an agency founder.

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Totally. It's a really good question. I think, I was 27 when I started Scout Lab and up until then, I really didn't think of my pitch or like my personal brand. I just really considered, am I doing cool work that is impactful and driving value for the organization that I was, consulting for or working for and that was it.

  And I think that's really important. Folks earlier on in their career should really just be thinking about am I doing cool shit? And is it driving impact, intended impact? And so when I started Scout Lab, I was again, 27. So I was finally able to curate a story around my impact, like what I had done, right?

  I started and sold a company. I had consulted for some really cool organizations. I had worked in Silicon Valley. Like I had fundraised. I had done all of these things that I could speak to in service of my reputation. I had people that could vouch for me. And so when I started Scout Lab, it was really like, again, codifying our differentiated point of view, developing this agile methodology connected to brand building.

  So It spoke directly to the venture-backed founder that we were trying to sell to. And it took off really quickly. And I think from there, I started to refine the pitch of ScoutLab, started to refine the pitch of myself. There was a lot of storytelling and trying to figure out how to pull my narrative through. I think every person has peaks in their career that they can speak to moments of glory that can allude to or provide examples of what they're capable of. And so putting that story together, starting from, when I entered Silicon Valley fundraising. Going through a startup cycle that wasn't successful, going through an exit, like going through leading a small team in a billion dollar organization, I was able to tell the story of my my impact, which cascaded into my personal brand.

  And then from there I was able to externalize like what I thought from that foundation of credibility. So began publishing work on my point of view on emerging technology or social issues. And I think that exercise as a writer again, collating my experience and applying it to relevant topics was really when like this idea of.

  Reputational personal brand or the externalization of self took off for me.

  Christine Gritmon: Now you have a co-founder with you at Scout Lab. You are not the sole entrepreneur behind this venture, not the sole agency owner. How would you Perhaps, I know this is a tricky one, but how would you perhaps describe how your personal brand and her personal brand differ or are the same or work together to inspire confidence?

  [00:19:05] How does a two-founder brand work when it comes to those personal brands and how do those personal brands serve the agency?

  Christine Gritmon: how does a two founder brand work when it comes to those personal brands and how do those personal brands serve the agency?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Oh, that's such a good question. So Willow my co founder is incredible. the co founder relationship is such an interesting one and the most valuable relationship you will have as a business owner when it works. And and it often doesn't work right. It requires a lot of self-awareness and like high self-monitoring and a commitment to growth.

  And through that growth with Willow, we were very committed to one, what we were building, but two being better people, leaders and people in service of taking care of our co-founder relationship. It's like any other relationship. If you don't grow together, you grow apart. And a part of that exercise was championing each other to tell their own personal narrative.

  So being vulnerable, I've shared a lot of first-person narrative that is highly vulnerable. for me, but was like great for externalizing what I care about, what I value. And that was always championed by my co founder. She always encouraged me to be like myself squared. And I think I did the same for her back.

  And it's funny because I think even that relationship dynamic that we have as co founders. We then externalize to our clients. So a lot of what we talk about with personal branding with the executives we work with is it authentic? Is it honest? And is it relevant? And if all of those things remain to be true, like it should give you a green light that perhaps that is something that is, worthwhile sharing with the world.

  And I, and certainly that exercise we started. Willow and myself with each other, and now is something that we do for, these amazing entrepreneurs that we work with that are trying to, be be impactful with certainly what they're building, but oftentimes these are female founders, BIPOC founders that are radical and just existing in these spaces that have historically been deeply homogenous and so sharing their stories is a pretty radical act and a very important one.

  Because like I said with my mom, like I had this really unique experience of seeing a female entrepreneur growing up, which not a lot of my friends did. And that I think limits your scope of what you think is possible. And so with The founders that we work with and they're building their personal brand.

  It's are you telling someone perhaps like a smaller version of yourself that it's okay to exist as a powerful founder and certainly, is it also signaling to the space that you're in, that you're here and you have opinions like all of that, I think. is a part of building your personal brand and making your mark on the world that I think, can be very profound if you want it to be.

  Christine Gritmon: Founders telling their stories with their work is just so huge and such a great way to make sure the impact goes beyond just their clients and really enters their whole industry as a whole. To that end, you do a lot of mentorship and giving back. I see that you're involved with a lot of organizations as, a mentor, as an advisor, as an investor, all of that.

  I would love to hear more about that because that's certainly part of your story. Part of your personal brand is someone who does want to elevate all these voices of a variety of founders. What sort of things do you help them out with? And what do you see in these, in some of these founders who maybe aren't they're not straight white men, let's be frank.

  what additional hurdles do you see them having to cermount? And what do you help them out with personally as well?

  [00:23:03] How does Kaitlyn help founders tell their stories?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: We always start with, and it really depends on the experience of the founder, but we always start with the professional stories. So what are you pitching? Cause I often, It needs to be like, the shared lexicon that we build, much more decorative storytelling on top of and that can be challenging, even for the most seasoned orators.

  Like, how do you talk about yourself, which can be such a clarifying and helpful and existential exercise? So once we do that, then it, Then we start to talk about what do you want to exist for? Like, why is the work you're doing important? Who do you want to unlock a door for? Who would you like to close a door on?

  And from there, we create a list of topics, themes, issues, that we then can weave into the story of the professional journey, right? If that is the skeleton, then we start to put color on top of it. And I think that's where it gets really interesting where, I work with debut venture fund manager and she has an incredible career.

  But she also, she also has some things to say outside of venture or intersectionally to the venture community that I think are really compelling. So like, how can she be. Radical for existing in a space that is very male dominant very white as a woman of color. And how can we, have her tell stories that can advance rather the venture community that can advance the field of finance.

  And I think that's that's really interesting. So I think first it's really understanding the story, like your professional pitch and then weaving in personal anecdotes or thematic concepts that you can speak to that make that professional journey even more rich.

  Christine Gritmon: And this brings us back to something you said pretty early on, which was about, it's about the reputation first, it's about the work first and doing the work and figuring out what kind of worker you are and developing that reputation for it. And then I love what you just said about adding in the color and that personal pull that really makes a difference and helps it stand out.

  So how do you find that balance is one of the questions that I'm sure a lot of people have because people think of personal branding sometimes as, the sort of surface level thing when, of course, if it's done properly, it is more than that. And especially as someone who, as you pointed out, is doing this bold thing by even, putting their stamp on this space, , which is not where someone who looks like them typically is.

  How do you strike that right balance? Because I'm sure there are some people who are a little afraid to lean on the identity element of it because they want to make sure that they're taken seriously as themselves and not as a token. But at the same time, you gotta shout out and own and, recognize the strength of your difference.

  So how do you recommend figuring out that balance as it were?

  [00:25:59] How does Kaitlyn help founders find the balance between professional and personal stories while highlighting their differences?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Yeah. I really believe it's up to the individual to know what intuitively feels right or important. I think. There are many different ways to build personal brand. You can build from your professional perspective. So not weaving in your identity at all. You can lean into your personal anecdotes, perhaps being different in your space.

  I think the most compelling storytelling is when there's as extreme narrative friction as possible. So that tends to be like how a person is different in the world that they're surrounded by or what unique experience makes what they've gone through different than what other people have gone through.

  I would never recommend an executive like go, tell a first person narrative if they just want to build credibility in the space of artificial intelligence. So they're like, I just want to be great at cybersecurity. I'm like, fantastic. There's a path for you there. So I think it's really up to you to figure out where and how do you want to be known? What is important for you as an individual and a person existing in a professional environment to build your point of focus or like what you, what your reputation is about. Then from there you can, create content buckets for you to, produce interesting pieces, whether it's like short form or long form or podcasts or whatever it might be. So I think it's really up to the individual to know their comfort level. And then from there, like developing what they, they want to externalize into the world.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, when it comes to founders and personal brands I, of course, I'm highly biased because I'm a personal branding person. So I would imagine that the personal brand plays a large role in founders being able to get the trust of the investors that they need of other partnerships that they need. I could be wrong.

  That might not be as huge a part of it, but I'd love to hear from you, someone who's been in that space so much on multiple sides of it how the personal brand can be leveraged, should be leveraged all of that. As a founder specifically, what can it do for you? Yeah. And what if someone is someone who would love to just hide behind the work. Maybe that works in some spaces. I'd just like to hear from you your picture of the personal brand in the founder space in terms of people looking to gain that trust from investors and others.

  [00:28:22] Does a founder’s personal brand help them build trust for investors and partners?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Totally. Yeah. The founder story to company connection cannot be understated. I think it's always more provocative when the founder has experienced the problem that they're trying to fix. And then from that point, being very vocal about how they intend to fix the problem, their perspective on what that problem or solution looks like in the future, as a communications specialist, like I love.

  Usually people want to listen to humans versus brands. So when we talk about like launching a company, I am looking to the founder to be that human representative that can create the story, the emotional appeal to an audience that hasn't heard about this organization yet as the Trojan horse to what the company is doing.

  People like people, they don't like to be sold by brands. And so I often find and encourage that founders be open and frank about what they're trying to build and why. Now that can be again, like a whole host of strategies forward, right? We work with founders who have deeply emotional and vulnerable stories and share them very openly.

  We also founders that just have like professional expertise in a subject matter and that is what enabled them to start their organization, which is also a version of personal brand that is totally appropriate. It really just depends on what you're doing and your level of comfort externalizing who you are. I always encourage founders to share their story, to share their point of view, to be differentiated in market as their communications partner.

  It makes my job. a lot easier. And as a person existing in the world that is looking for the doers and the change makers and the people trying to fix some of the hardest problems on planet earth, I want those voices and stories to be heard. So yeah, I think it's ideal to have a founder startup or like founder journey connection to whatever solution you're solving for.

  And best practice is generally when, the founder is like open about sharing that and I find that's certainly supports fundraising that supports partnerships that supports earned media, kind of everything,

  Christine Gritmon: I love what you said about the personal brand sort of being the Trojan horse. It gets you in the door and then you can present what you're selling ultimately when it comes down to it. All right. So Kaitlyn, final question. And this one's a, again, a bit of a more personal one, but what you've been in this personal branding game for a while, you have built your own over time.

  [00:31:00] What do you personally as Kaitlyn struggle with or have you struggled with the most in the past when it has come to your own personal brand?

  Christine Gritmon: You've helped others build theirs. What do you personally as Kaitlyn struggle with or have you struggled with the most in the past when it has come to your own personal brand.

  Kaitlyn Barclay: This is such a good question. I just gave a talk on like personal storytelling using my own and it is being ready to tell some of the stories that you have in your life. And I am very much an open book. I think some of the most, profound moments of my life. Are the struggle are the hard moments that have a lot of shame around them.

  I think if anyone looks at the valleys in their life, there is some sort of shame around them. The shame of failure, the shame of loss, the shame of violence or abuse or oppression. And. I hope to exist as someone who shines a light and remove shame on those valleys, because usually shame is reserved for those that are victimized or being oppressed.

  And so when I think about my own story and telling my own story I think it's really important to be. It has been really important for me to exercise vulnerability as much as possible. I've talked about my own sexual abuse. I've talked very openly, the process of building organizations that have and have not worked.

  I've talked about being a lesbian. I've talked about being a woman in technology, like these things that make me different and these things that make me, I think, brilliant and more vibrant in the world. Have historically made me stand out for better or for worse. And so when I think about externalizing my story, I think about needing to have gone through the story myself, complete the narrative for me so that I can share in a grounded way in a thoughtful way.

  And with insights at the end the story itself so that it says instructive and informative of removing stigma or being representative or removing shame as humanly possible, because that's what I think storytelling is the most profound. That's when it's the most important and that's when it's the best received when it doesn't feel like you're still traumatized by what's happened to you, whether that's, a professional endeavor or a personal explosion that led to some sort of silver lining, you need to have gone through the full story yourself and know what you learned, come out the hero and then tell the story.

  I think that's, from my own journey, that's been my philosophy and I would encourage others to do the same.

  Christine Gritmon: Wise words to end on. Thank you so much, Kaitlyn, for being so open with your thoughts on all of this, your experiences. I'm sure this is It's going to help a lot of people, especially founders, as they pull their personal brands together. So let's tell the good folks at home, Kaitlyn, where can they find you?

  Why should they find you? And what will they find there?

  Kaitlyn Barclay: Yeah, you can always find me at scoutlab.com. Kaitlyn@scoutlab.com is my email. I would say if you're, someone looking to do something big, if you are someone who's doing something big, always open to have a conversation and see if I can support you in any way, shape or form. It's like my passion, my driving force.

  And yeah, that's, I exist to, to support radical founders doing cool stuff.

  Christine Gritmon: Thank you so much for being on today, Kaitlyn.

  And thank you for being here listening to Let's Talk About Brand. Whether you are joining us on the podcast or if you're watching the video podcast over on YouTube, either way, please do subscribe, leave a comment if you liked it, and don't forget to join us next week when I'll be back with another smart guest expert talking about another element of branding.

  Bye bye.

S4 Ep08: Let’s Talk About Building Your Brand Messaging with Kate DiLeo

This week I am excited to talk with a new friend, Kate DiLeo the owner of Brand Trifecta, which, fascinatingly enough, is a software that helps you build your brand and refine your brand messaging. 

So that is, of course, what we are talking about today.

We're talking about how to approach building your brand message and how that may differ for a personal brand versus a B2B brand versus a B2C brand. Then we dig into all the parts of branding to understand what you really need to express your brand. 

Tune in as we talk about: 

[00:00] Welcome Kate DiLeo!
[02:10] How do you define brand?
[04:16] How did Kate start to build a SaaS (software as a service) brand technology?
[06:28] Are there differences in the approach to building a personal brand vs a company brand?
[08:00] What about B2B or B2C, is there a difference in the brand messaging there? 
[09:50] How does a brand get the consumer to ask "Who am I?"
[12:05] Where does brand messaging fit in with your overall marketing content?
[14:44] What do brands need to have in order to have a strong brand message
[17:03] When did brands shift from being aspirational to being real and relatable?
[20:10] Let's talk about becoming a personal brand inside of an organization
[22:55] How did Kate start her personal brand?
[28:05] What is the most effective way to get your brand message out there?
[30:18] Catch up with Kate DiLeo

Contact Kate DiLeo:

Website: https://katedileo.com/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katedileo/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katedileo/

• Read Transcript Here

  [00:00:00] Welcome Kate DiLeo!

  [00:00:00] Christine Gritmon: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About Brand. I am your host, Christine Gritmon. Please make sure to subscribe to Let's Talk About Brand on your podcast player of choice and leave a review if you like it.

  I always love to hear from people. You can reach out to me anywhere, really. I always love to hear feedback on this show and have chats on personal branding in general.

  One person who I had some great conversations about branding with recently is my new friend Kate DiLeo. Kate and I met. At an event at which we were both speaking, of course, we're both talking about brand.

  It is what we do. Kate owns Brand Trifecta, which, fascinatingly enough, is actually a software that helps you build your brand and refine your brand messaging. So that is, of course, what we are talking about today.

  We're talking about... How to even approach building your brand and how that may differ for a personal brand versus a B2B brand versus a B2C brand.

  We dig into all the types of branding, what you really need to know in order to get that brand solid and how to express it. We even go into Kate's own personal branding story a little bit, which I always love doing with my guests, because of course they all have personal brands. That's why they're here on Let's Talk About Brand after all.

  So, really looking forward to today's conversation.

  [00:01:20] Host - Christine Gritmon: So without any further ado, Kate DiLeo, come on down.

  [00:01:30] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Thank you so much for having me, Christine. I'm so excited to be here.

  [00:01:34] Host - Christine Gritmon: I'm excited too. So now you and I met a couple months ago at the Marketing Profs B2B forum? Summit? What was it? It

  [00:01:42] Guest - Kate DiLeo: The Forum. Yes. In Boston.

  [00:01:44] Host - Christine Gritmon: We both spoke and we immediately were just like, Oh, we're vibing. Especially since we are both Brand Girlies, you with your company Brand Trifecta. So we're here to talk about brand.

  I was like, I have to have a conversation with you. So let's actually dive in with a question that I ask a lot of my guests, not quite all of them, but a lot of them. How would you define brand?

  [00:02:10] How do you define brand?

  [00:02:10] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Oh my gosh, where do we start? So really, I define brand as The promise of who you are and the value that you deliver in the world. Specifically, what that looks like is a message. Brand is really the message of who you say and what you do, how you solve somebody's problem and how you're different and better than the rest.

  And it's ultimately this message, Christine, that compels our target audiences and our partners and our customers to want to take the next step with us.

  [00:02:46] Host - Christine Gritmon: I love that. That is a fabulous description of brand. What is your brand promise, Kate? And what is brand promise of Brand Trifecta? And are they the same promise?

  [00:02:57] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Well, I actually do have two brands. I have a personal brand and then a corporate brand. For many years, I just had my personal brand of katedelio. com. As a consultant and speaker and author that is really about helping organizations build brands that win more work. Now for my product brand, the brand trifecta that whole promise is around building messaging that delivers revenue results, both of them tied together.

  And it's really around my thesis and around my whole philosophy that your brand is your path of least resistance to revenue, period. yet the messaging is slightly nuanced for both.

  [00:03:39] Host - Christine Gritmon: I love that. I love that whole concept. And the really fascinating thing to me when I found out about you and about brand trifecta is that it's a SAS product. It's software as a service. And it's really fascinating to me because when I work with clients on their personal branding, it's so like manual and personal and all of that.

  So I am fascinated By how you were able to translate branding into a SaaS product. Could you tell us just a little bit just about how that process even occurred to you? Like, Hey, why aren't people doing this and how you even, made that a thing.

  [00:04:16] How did Kate start to build a SaaS (software as a service) brand technology?

  [00:04:16] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Yeah. It's first of all, I don't think that anybody gets into business to say I'm going to build a tech product. Oh my gosh, I'm so tired. No, I'm kidding. But For me, it actually was a few part process. So if we rewind a number of years, I was consulting, building brands, I've worked with about 350 companies as a consultant to take them through my proprietary branding approach, which is called the brand trifecta.

  And about two and a half years ago, I decided to write down my method in book format. Because I had a lot of people asking, Hey, can you give me kind of the one, two, three Kate of how I can do this on my own? I may not need you as a consultant, but I'd love to give it a shot. What's the playbook, Kate?

  So I wrote that down in a book format of really a tactical method to build your brand. And that was the impetus for then building a technology platform that allowed people to go through that same process. But without me in the room, and so I created a platform that is extremely interactive. It's very intuitive. It uses a lot of interactive content and videos and exercises to take marketers and leaders Through that brand building process that I've done for more than a decade But do it in a way where you're going through that iterative writing process and brand building process and only a matter of weeks That was the goal is to get you through the hard knocks of how I write this How do I actually write brand?

  [00:05:39] Host - Christine Gritmon: And that is so important because of course, if you can't convey it, if you can't express it in a way that other people can receive and understand and process, you don't really have a brand.

  [00:05:50] Guest - Kate DiLeo: that's right.

  [00:05:52] Host - Christine Gritmon: So, so of course, I would imagine a lot of the companies that are using the brand Trifecta software are probably more like bigger brands, like either B2B or consumer brands.

  So I'd like to hear from you as someone who's also built a personal brand, what some of the differences are between how you approach building a personal brand versus how you might approach building a company brand. So, first, so, I mean, we can talk about similarities as well, but I'd like to start with the differences in how you would approach those two puzzles.

  [00:06:28] Are there differences in the approach to building a personal brand vs a company brand?

  [00:06:28] Guest - Kate DiLeo: So I think the number one thing that we need to remember for the personal branding side is that it's not so much about products and services, right? So as a corporate brand, you often need to think through the how and the what. How am I delivering a particular product or service? Do I have a proprietary approach?

  Do we deliver a streamlined technology abc on the personal writing side? The biggest difference is really getting rooted in who you are as an individual first and foremost authentically with your tone of voice and personality But then understanding Out of all the things that I've done as a human, what is my zone of excellence, my expertise, and how do I build a brand around that promise of whether I am showing up in my career, I decide I want to do freelancing on the side, I'm building my own business in a few years, I'm writing a book, I want to speak, whatever it may be, what's your zone of excellence, and how do you write a message around that for you as a human?

  Whereas for a corporate brand, it is more around the promise of how the company's products and services can solve a consumer's problem.

  [00:07:38] Host - Christine Gritmon: That makes sense in terms of that focus. Now, gonna go to another level there, which is, let's say you're talking about a consumer brand. B2B vs. B2C. Are there any sort of differences in either approach or even the ingredients that go in between those two types of brands in your professional opinion?

  [00:08:00] What about B2B or B2C, is there a difference in the brand messaging there?

  [00:08:00] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Okay, so I teach that the method is still the same in terms of, based on biopsychology, your target audiences still need to know three components in your brand message before they're compelled to want to take the next step and convert, whether that is contact you, click to watch the explainer video, go to your products or services page, whatever it may be, whatever the conversion moment is, whatever action you want them to take.

  And those three things are the brand trifecta, which is one, a tagline that tells somebody what you do, followed by two, a value proposition statement that says, here's how I solve somebody's problem. And three, a set of differentiator statements. Here's the one, two, three, or four ways that I'm different than others.

  Okay, so psychologically, that's what somebody needs to understand for them to go. Oh my gosh, that makes sense. Now tell me more. Now, here's the difference between B2B and B2C. One of the biggest differences is that the first line of defense of what a business wants to know is what do you do?

  And so that means that the type of language you use speaks very quickly to having, for example, a tagline that speaks to we do blank for these businesses. We deliver IT services. We are a tax consulting firm. Whereas if you sell to consumers, the first logical question that a consumer has is not what do you do?

  But who am I and what experience can I expect to have when I have your product in my hands?

  [00:09:34] Host - Christine Gritmon: Ooh, who am

  [00:09:35] Guest - Kate DiLeo: that

  [00:09:36] Host - Christine Gritmon: I love that ingredient. Wow, dive into that a little more, please. I want to know how you can... As a brand, kind of get into that headspace of what's going to have that consumer asking who am I in relation to your brand.

  [00:09:50] How does a brand get the consumer to ask "Who am I?"

  [00:09:50] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Yes, so Where this comes into play is your tagline your response when somebody asks you Oh, it's so nice to meet you. Let's say you're at a networking event. Oh, it's so nice to meet you They ask you well, what do you do? What do you say in those first five or six words consumer brands often have taglines that can feel very Nebulous and kind of out there.

  It's very like fluffy. Just do it. You're worth it You know things of that nature. Well, why is that because for again for the consumer brands it is about having somebody understand when I have this product I Live differently. I think differently. I become somebody slightly different. And that is ultimately what a consumer brand cares about is because product purchasing comes from a place of heart and tension around who I become and what experience I can have.

  Whereas a business needs to deeply understand. What do you do? Get to the nuts and bolts as quickly as possible. What do you do for companies? Two very different things. I would say, by the way, personal branding often falls kind of in the middle. You do need to speak to what somebody else can experience with you, certainly.

  But you also can't get so convoluted that you've lost sight of clearly articulating. What you do as a human, as an individual with your personal brand.

  [00:11:10] Host - Christine Gritmon: And that can certainly get tricky for any kind of brand, because there are certainly those in marketing, I think especially in things like B2B marketing, who have the sense of, it's not a, brand being this fluffy thing that they don't need to focus on as much, whereas, they focus on, features and benefits, or, the bottom line.

  all of that stuff. But there is, of course, a place for brand. I think that brand is incredibly important. We'd both agree on that much. So I'm wondering how you'd articulate not exactly what the split should be, but sort of the position that pure brand messaging or pure branding content, things that brands put out there that are perhaps not directly about the product.

  What place those maybe should have in a brand's marketing activities, and if it differs depending on situation. Does that make any sense?

  [00:12:05] Where does brand messaging fit in with your overall marketing content?

  [00:12:05] Guest - Kate DiLeo: It does. You're asking a question, Christine around in my opinion, kind of hierarchy of content and placement of brand messaging as it relates to the rest of your marketing content and various marketing and sales activities you may undergo. And one of the things that I always want us to remember is that when we talk about brand and when I teach about brand content, that brand trifecta of tagline, Value proposition statement, differentiator statements.

  I want us to remember that's almost like the tip top of the content hierarchy. It's the very first line of defense. It's what you say in that first 30 seconds to compel somebody to want to know more. And so it needs to be strong. It needs to be highly emotional and provocative. Not pretentious. And what it should do is open the door to that person going, now I want to know more.

  Now let me dig into features, benefits, pricing, inclusions, explainer videos, how it works, content, proprietary approach, and then even into other things like white papers, blogs, case studies, social proof, et cetera. All of these things back up and bolster the message that you've delivered in the front line with that brand trifecta messaging at the tip top.

  But nobody cares about the thing you deliver or your customer case studies until you can tell them What you do, how you solve their problem, and how you're different in the first 30 seconds. And so that's why brand is imperative. You still need to create this message and deliver this message that authentically allows other people to opt in to have an actual conversation with you.

  [00:13:47] Host - Christine Gritmon: So it's about getting that real hook, not necessarily something as shallow as a hook, because that can just be snazzy work that says nothing. But in terms of that concept of the hook being the thing that draws them in, that makes people want to learn more, that prevents them from scrolling past on social media or swiping past or, whatever, or just kind of skipping your Google results, any of that gets them to want to know more.

  Ah, love that. So, in terms of what a brand needs in order to get people to not only want to know more, but also to recognize them when they see them again, to seek them out to get that stickiness, what are some things that you feel A brand really needs to have in place and that, that can run the gamut.

  Obviously, I'd imagine some sort of statement because that's what you've talked a lot about and I gather that's really the core of brand trifecta's work. But what are some things that brands of all sorts really got to pull together before they really have a strong brand?

  [00:14:44] What do brands need to have in order to have a strong brand message

  [00:14:44] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Well, I'll tell you, even before you write the statements, right? Before you write a winning tagline or a winning value proposition statement that's memorable and people go, Oh yeah, I know that company or that organization or that person. Number one, you need to know how you authentically show up in the world.

  And so one of the first pieces of work that I do with any client is to take them through understanding their brand's authentic personality and tone of voice. So I'm going to talk a little bit about how you sound and seem and show up in the world because brand is not aspirational. Brand is really true to who you are today and how you show up in the world.

  You can have strategic business goals, but if your brand does not sound like you and seem like you, people will smell it a mile away. So you've got to be number one, extremely authentic and know how you sound and seem so that every piece of your messaging and every piece of your content and every piece of your materials.

  Thank you. Feels like something that is truly you. The second piece is you need to know who you're talking to and why. Because in order to have a brand that resonates at a heart level, you need to know who it needs to resonate with. Your brand's job is not to convince everybody in the world that they need to buy from you or like you.

  Your brand's job is to speak to the few who will most deeply resonate at a heart level with what you're saying and will want to opt in and take the next step with you. Those two pieces of knowing who you are and how you show up and then really understanding who you actually need and want to speak with are imperative before you begin the brand building process.

  [00:16:19] Host - Christine Gritmon: One thing that I love that you pointed out, you said brand is not aspirational. It's who you are and kind of how you show up right now, and that is a really strong take, because I think in the past, a lot of times brands have kind of tried to be a little more aspirational. I think that represents a shift.

  [00:16:38] Guest - Kate DiLeo: It

  [00:16:38] Host - Christine Gritmon: I mean, what do you think about that? And how do you think that shift really occurred? Because I think brands used to be seen As being more, smooth and polished and aspirational and that really has shifted. We want to relate to brands. We want to see ourselves

  [00:16:52] Guest - Kate DiLeo: right.

  [00:16:53] Host - Christine Gritmon: in brands really clearly.

  Do you feel like that's a shift? I think we're, similar ages. I think that we've both seen the shift. So what do you think that comes down to?

  [00:17:03] When did brands shift from being aspirational to being real and relatable?

  [00:17:03] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Well, I'll tell you two big things that happened to start to make that shift. Number one, and I talk about this in my book which is called muting the megaphone, but do you remember Christine, like five, 10 years ago, ClickFunnels came onto the scene and you'd go to a website page and it was just like, So long and 75 buttons and you couldn't figure out what you're clicking and you're

  [00:17:23] Host - Christine Gritmon: I'm sure they'd lose people very high up in that funnel. They'd lose people. It's like you have to jump through hoops in order to get to the meat. What they're trying to sell you.

  [00:17:34] Guest - Kate DiLeo: The first thing that I began to notice in my work was that people were tired of being inundated with content Get to the point. Tell me authentically who you are and what you do And I think the second big thing that began to happen is not only was there an overwhelm of content that made consumers go, Ugh, please just be real with me.

  Stop trying to sell me with like a three stage funnel. Oh my god. The second thing that began to happen was pure digital exhaustion. COVID made us really tired. We spent more time on our computers and devices than ever before, and more than ever, we were also the loneliest that we've ever been as a society.

  And that loneliness really created a craving for human connection and authentic human connection. So more than ever, consumers, no matter your age, no matter what generation or where you live even, or your socioeconomic dynamics, we want authentic. Brands to whom we can relate and surely understand who they are who's behind the brand And that's why I say brand is not aspirational if a consumer can't see the human behind the brand message You're gonna lose them.

  You're gonna miss them because at the end of the day People buy from people.

  [00:18:51] Host - Christine Gritmon: They absolutely do. And that brings me to another topic that I want to dive into. So as one of my One of the things I've been really geeking out on lately is about the concept of people within organizations having their own personal brands, which also represents a shift. There used to be this sense of, you don't want to rock the boat, just be a cog in the machine.

  Otherwise, if you stand out too much, you're going to get clipped or, your company is going to worry that either you're putting all your energy into your profile and business and activities rather than theirs or some other competitors gonna swipe you up. But now smart businesses are recognizing that it is really smart to have internal people developing thought leadership developing a professional presence, so I just want to hear your take on sort of how, if someone out there listening is kind of ready to take that leap and is interested in figuring out how their brand fits within their organizational brand.

  We, we are assuming here that they want to stay. We're assuming they want to grow within their organization. They want to be a good representative of their organization. They aren't, testing out the waters for their own gig. They Want to stay there. What are some brand considerations there that perhaps they should have while building their brand within the Organizational brand.

  [00:20:10] Let's talk about becoming a personal brand inside of an organization

  [00:20:10] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Well, I think first and foremost, I love that you call it. This is not about trying to jump ship or leave your organization, right? So, so often we think, Oh, I have to build a personal brand to leave and get the next job. Actually, hold on. If you take a step back, your best place where you want to start to bolster and strengthen your personal brand is when you have a great company that you work for and you want to continue to grow and thrive and add value to the organization.

  Here's the thing. Leadership. And I think a lot of employers as well as employees around you will begin to see you differently and lean on you for your expertise and seek you out when you have a strong personal brand said differently, people need to know you right and so I think we've got to go back to the beginning of our conversation, which is what is your lane in your zone of excellence?

  What are you known for? When I began to build my personal brand many years ago when I was working in corporate, I sat back one day and I thought to myself. Because I was challenged by a boss, by the way, to say, well, what's your one liner? I was like, oh gosh, what do I say? My name is Kate and I'm known for what?

  And I had to sit down and think very hard about what am I known for? What's the pattern of what people always call me for help? And I began to realize it was messaging. In finding the pattern and the clarity among all of the details for people, I was able to synthesize and say it's this as quickly as possible.

  This was many years ago. And so I had to build a personal brand around that. And the second thing that I needed to do is be really confident in that and begin to evangelize that brand meaning I would start to show up and speak about it in gentle ways. Talking about, I'm passionate about this. I love doing this.

  I had this great opportunity to help so and so with this. And I've leaned on them for other things. You've got to softly evangelize. And the third thing that I think is important with personal branding inside an organization. Is to really be curious and open to asking questions of other leaders, even outside your own leadership team.

  That's direct. You directly report to let them know you and see you and begin to see other parts of the organization. When that happens, you're going to create this consistency among different parts of the business that see you for your core brand.

  [00:22:30] Host - Christine Gritmon: I love that and you started getting into something that I was gonna ask you about next. So there we go which is Kate, how did you start building your own personal brand and What were those kind of? plOt points along the way where you realized, first of all, that you did have a strong personal brand.

  And second of all, when you realized you could leverage that into helping build the brands of others.

  [00:22:55] How did Kate start her personal brand?

  [00:22:55] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Yes. I'll tell you it. There were many years where it felt like a zigzag path because I was working for a couple great organizations and at the time I didn't really want to be an entrepreneur. I had my business is kind of a side hustle. I was building my family and I thought, Oh, this is great, but I don't know if I ever want to do that full time.

  I was concerned about certainly growing in my corporate career and I needed to take that seriously. And so I had a number of positions in marketing As well as sales and operations, and one of the things that I was really adamant about was sitting down and getting to know other leaders and other teams, and I used to drive them nuts because I kept asking them, Well, why do you do it that way?

  And well, so what do I need to do differently in my role in marketing it to think about what operations is doing to deliver on the promise we're putting into the world or I go and ask sales. But why do you say it that way? And how come I can't see it this way when I run an ad for us for marketing and I'll tell you what being almost a bit of a pain was a big part of my personal brand building that I recognized if I don't have clarity of how other people view this organization, I'm never going to be able to help them create consistency and I certainly won't know where I fit into the puzzle when I was

  [00:24:08] Host - Christine Gritmon: one thing that, one thing I just wanted to pick up on is I just had a conversation with someone recently who is going out on his own as a consultant after a while being in house at various companies. And one thing he pointed out is he said, I was always that guy. People were like, Oh, that guy again, asking the questions, digging into these things, questioning everything.

  And I said, you know what? You can go from being, Oh, that guy to. Yes, that guy. Sometimes that's what you need. And I love that you pointed out that really brings people to a point of understanding and insight. Sorry to interrupt. Continue. I just had to, I just had to point that out because I love it.

  [00:24:44] Guest - Kate DiLeo: It's so great and I was that person and I think the other thing that I noticed though Is I began to ask others around me. So this journey of me figuring out what my personal brand was For a while there. I felt stuck because I was so in the weeds of oh, i'm a project manager. I'm a marketing manager I'm a brand manager.

  I'm a this and i'm a that and I was so title focused that I missed the clarity around understanding what am I actually really great at? Because it's about more than title, right? So I actually had to start asking coworkers, family, friends, and I asked him a couple of simple questions. If you had to come to me with any sort of problems, what do you know I could solve for you?

  And then I started to ask, what am I like the best at? Like, what do you know out of your entire friend circle? Oh, if you need that, go to Kate. And it was fascinating. I began to see a pattern. I asked like 20 people and the number one things that they started to tell me were, you are incredible with language.

  You can totally take a complex message and boil it down. You somehow clarify complexities. Kate, you're a wizard. They just started saying these, and you know what? That was imperative for me to hear what others were saying. Because I was so in my head, and I was so lost in my job title, and my job responsibilities, that I think I lost sight of that out of some of the parts of All the various titles and roles that I've had, what is the true pattern of excellence and natural capability that I have as Kate?

  That was the beginning for me to then start to put language around that and go, Oh my gosh, it is brand. That is what I'm good at. And now I can start to speak to that differently.

  [00:26:26] Host - Christine Gritmon: And I love that you pointed out that it really kind of had to come from outside. So many times we just, we're just rocking along doing our thing and we think, well, yeah, I can do that. It's not that hard because we're great at it.

  [00:26:38] Guest - Kate DiLeo: That's right.

  [00:26:40] Host - Christine Gritmon: yes, oh, that is so huge, so I absolutely love that you had that experience, that you were able to build upon it and ask people what that meant for them.

  Ah,

  [00:26:50] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Absolutely. It was great. Christine, at the end of the day, I always try to remember that for branding, whether it's a personal brand or corporate brand, we're stepping out into the world and we have to remember that we're not in the business of convincing. We're in the business of converting.

  And so it's really important for us to spend the time talking with folks and working with other coaches or experts who can help us synthesize our brands, nail that down and get things aligned in such a way that when we step into the room, we can speak to that with confidence and clarity. That's the stuff that somebody else sees at the other end of that conversation and goes.

  I want to know more. I want to go deeper with you. I want to partner with you in some way. I want to take the next step and buy.

  [00:27:38] Host - Christine Gritmon: So you've worked with lots of brands, your own and those of others, of course, that you've seen. What do you feel are some of the most effective ways to get your brand message out there? Once you've defined it, once you know what you stand for and how to phrase it so that other people can kind of see themselves in it and be like, yeah, that's me.

  That's what I need. How do you even get to the point where they? Can encounter your message. What do you feel is really effective there?

  [00:28:05] What is the most effective way to get your brand message out there?

  [00:28:05] Guest - Kate DiLeo: I would say believe it or not running ads is one of the last things you need to think about, I say that jokingly, but i'll tell you You've got to use your immediate network. So what do I mean by that? So not all of us need to go build a personal brand website unless you're ready to go consult or do something on your own.

  Okay. And if that's you, that's wonderful. I do think you need a digital presence, a digital footprint that includes a website, but for many of us that might just be leaders within our organizations. Maybe we're trying to be better known in our spheres of excellence. Maybe it's in our communities, our industries.

  You've got to leverage getting that message out there through your social channels I want you to remember that like your linkedin profile for example is really your walking resume and your walking website, your own personal website. And so it behooves you to really make sure that your messaging is updated on your LinkedIn profile or on your Instagram, wherever maybe you show up most frequently and where your community is.

  And then of course, show up in those rooms and engage with people. It might mean that you join some CEO mastermind groups. Maybe there's some free networking groups with peers. in your community or in your sector or industry, but you need to show up in the room and then begin to speak to it in that way.

  That's when the glue starts to kind of happen. And then the last piece is posting on things that you're passionate about as it relates to what your personal brand is all about. Are you posting? Are you sharing others content? Maybe you don't need to do a 15 minute video or run your own podcast, but maybe it's sharing a great article that inspired you, that has to do with what you are so great at and what you love.

  People ultimately connect with others who are passionate about the work that they do. And so if you can stay in your zone of excellence and stay passionate and share that passion with others, Even through something as simple as social media, that is a first big step in getting your personal brand out there.

  People will know you and see you and refer to you.

  [00:30:03] Host - Christine Gritmon: Amen. Well, Kate, this has been incredible. I was so excited to have this conversation with you. Absolutely delivered. So tell the good folks at home where they can find you, why they should find you, and what they'll find there.

  [00:30:18] Catch up with Kate DiLeo

  [00:30:18] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Well, thank you for having me. So you can take a look at LinkedIn, of course, Instagram, but you can also check out my website, which is www.katedileo.com. I'm sure Christine will have that link in the show notes. And you'll see details not only on my book and speaking but you'll see a link to brand trifecta, which again is that digital brand building platform.

  And I invite you to check out the book or the platform and learn more about this approach around how do you build those 1, 2, 3 components of a brand message that's ultimately going to bring more of the right people to the table at the right time.

  [00:30:52] Host - Christine Gritmon: I love that. Well, I'm very glad that this right person, Kate DiLeo, was brought to our table here at Let's Talk About Brand at the Right Time. Thank you so much for being here, Kate.

  [00:31:01] Guest - Kate DiLeo: Yes. Thanks, Christine. It was a joy.

  [00:31:03] Christine Gritmon: And thank you for joining us for Let's Talk About Brand. Whether you are listening to us on your podcast player of choice, or you're joining us here on YouTube for the video podcast, either way, please be sure to subscribe, leave a comment if you like it, and join us next week, because every single week we're coming at you with a different, very smart, extra special guest talking about a different element of personal branding.

  See you

S4 Ep07: Let’s Talk About Tapping Your Potential with George B. Thomas

On today's episode, I want you to be inspired by the personal brand story of George B. Thomas. 

I first encountered George when he was on stage hosting the Inbound conference by HubSpot. George has such a great energy, and he brings so much value to many people in so many different ways, not just as a HubSpot expert, but also in the way he talks to people and cares about people's lives. 

Today we are going to talk about how he first grew his personal brand by aligning himself with other companies and what that led to. We're going to talk about his adventures within agencies and how they helped him to continue to evolve his brand. Then we will talk about the next phase of his career as he launches his own agency and how all that work became the unknown foundation that allowed him to launch quickly. 

Finally, we talk about his newest initiative that goes beyond his agency work and speaks to the core of what he's always been about, which is,  corralling untapped human potential and encouraging others to go for it the way others have encouraged him along his journey.

Tune in as we talk about: 
[00:00] Welcome George B. Thomas!
[04:34] How did George start his personal brand?
[07:51] Personal Brand Lesson: Be very careful that you don't let what you think are weaknesses stop you, because many times what you think is a weakness can be your strength.
[09:14] What was George doing (before video, podcasting or any internet content) that captured the attention of Marcus Sheridan? 
[11:03] Personal Brand Lesson: If you’re sitting in an organization you can become a leader. You can be a thought leader. Even if you're not the owner, even if you don't work for the organization that you're teaching the things around, that's the power of building a personal brand inside of the organization. 
[15:31] When it comes to building a personal brand remember that different people engage with different types of humans. So its not a competition with others - you are just reaching the people you were meant reach and others are reaching the ones they are meant to reach.
[19:42] How George decided to start his own agency and how the work he had done on his personal brand helped him launch quickly. 
[24:07] How does George decide what opportunities he is going to align himself to? |[29:18] What is next for George? 

Contact George B. Thomas:
Website: Georgebthomas.com 
Podcast: HubHeros
Podcast: Beyond Your Default

• Read the Transcript Here

  Christine Gritmon: Hello, welcome to Let's Talk About Brand. I am your host, Christine Gritmon, and I'm coming at you every single week on Let's Talk About Brand, interviewing another guest expert about another topic related to personal branding. Today, we get to hear the incredible personal brand story of George B. Thomas.

  I first encountered George when he was on stage hosting at the enormous, Inbound conference run by HubSpot. I've seen him on stages numerous times. I've been on his podcast. He has several podcasts. He has several video series. He's done a whole bunch of stuff with his personal brand, but when it comes down to it, what really lingers with people and what they really notice.

  This is George himself. He just has such a great energy, and he brings so much value to so many people in so many different ways, not just as a HubSpot expert, but also just the way he is and the way he talks to people and the way he cares about people's lives. So we're going to hear from George today about, first of all, how he became George B.

  Thomas in terms of, becoming that name that companies recognized the value in. We're going to talk about his adventures going, within agencies, starting to take more steps. He's in the final stages, starting to do more content, and eventually starting his own agency, plus another new initiative that goes beyond his agency work to really do the core of what he's always been about, which is, corralling that untapped human potential and encouraging others to go for it the way others have encouraged him along his journey.

  All right, so as many others have said before on many other stages, come on down George B. Thomas!

  George B. Thomas: All right, I'm on the price is right. Let's go.

  Christine Gritmon: The price is always right on Let's Talk About Brand.

  George B. Thomas: I know. I can't wait. I'm so excited, Christine, today to just unpack and add value and help the viewers or listeners of this content that we're about to put down.

  Christine Gritmon: And I'm so excited because I have had the benefit since Probably about 2016 or 2017 of seeing you share your gifts on stages, on podcasts. I have been on your Marketing Smarts podcast and it's honestly one of my favorite podcast appearances I've ever done. You're a really good host. And can I just say the thing that I noticed most about you as a host, which I think is probably an indicator of how you operate as a person and as a creator and as a brand, is that you really listened.

  To me. And I know, obviously, when I'm talking with people and interviewing them, I do listen. Obviously. It's a conversation. But you really were so on it where you'd take like a tiny, specific grain of something that I said and you just spin it out. And I really appreciate that about you and what it says about you as a generous creator.

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, it's funny, Christine, because when you say that, I'm like yes, it is how I operate for me. It is all about the humans and all about being human. And when I say that, I have to say it's about being a good human along the way and good humans listen to those who they're interacting with.

  Good humans make those people that they're interacting with feel comfortable. And so when I bring somebody on the marketing smarts show or the sidekick strategy show or any podcast that I'm creating with somebody it's like, how do I make them comfortable? How do I listen intently? How do I create a dope conversation?

  That all the listeners can just feel like maybe we're at a bar or a library and they're just listening in and they're getting like these secret gold nuggets of information to use for their business.

  Christine Gritmon: Oh, I love that. Thank you so much. So I want to give the folks at home just an overview of who you are, what you're all about. And let's actually start pretty early, George, because we're going to tell your story here today on Let's Talk About Brand, because you have built a brand while within another organization.

  You built a brand as an employee. You have built a brand in, conjunction with another brand, and you've built a brand just as you, as George B. Thomas. You've done all sorts of things, many of them concurrently. So let's go to the start, not like literally birth, but whatever avenue in which you started building your personal brand, if we can even say that.

  I know it sounds like a weird thing to say about yourself here's where my personal brand started. But still, George, when did your brand start?

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, darn it. I was going to say I was born in 1970. No, I'm just kidding. So what's funny is I can actually pinpoint to the time. When the brand was born per se. And here's the thing, a couple of things that I want people to understand is that a lot of what has happened has somewhat been strategy.

  Somewhat just been circumstance and somewhat just happy accident, but they can learn from what has happened along the way. So in 2012, I was working for a small agency in Massillon, Ohio, and our social media guy came running in and he's Hey you've got to check out this webinar by this company called HubSpot.

  They're doing the world's largest webinar. And the owner and I were like a what by who we had no clue that there was this thing called inbound marketing or this software called HubSpot, but we sat down and we listened to this webinar. And during the world's largest webinar in 2012, they were saying, Hey, we're going to give away 10 tickets to the top 5 percent of tweeters.

  This was back before Twitter changed their name. Anyway, the 5 percent of tweeters on the webinar, long story short, we won two tickets. By the way, I didn't tweet once the owner didn't tweet once our social media guy, his fingers are on fire. Ah,

  Christine Gritmon: I have to point out that's actually part of how I started building my personal brand. I started, participating in those conversations, tweeting at conferences like Inbound, and that is how I got seen at the beginning. So I love that part of your story begins with getting seen as participating in, in an event.

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. So we went to Boston. We learned about HubSpot. I fell in love. I went from a designer developer, a guy who pizza and a six pack comes in the office and a website comes out the other side to saying, I want to be a marketer when I grow up. One certification became two, became six, became seven.

  And then all of a sudden, I got the phone call. And this is the birth of the brand. I got a phone call from a gentleman named Marcus Sheridan, who I worked for before he wrote the book, They Ask, You Answer, but is the author of They Ask, You Answer, and a couple other books at the time of this recording.

  And he says, Hey, I think you have some talents that I can use. And my small agency back then, it was called the sales line. And so I got hired there and immediately we started creating a podcast called the hub cast, which was a podcast specific for hub spot users. And he, in 2014 made the words of. I want you to start doing video.

  And so I started doing HubSpot video tutorials. Now this is way before video became cool because it was like in 2018 that they started saying, this is the year of video. Now they've said this is the year of video ever year since then, but in

  Christine Gritmon: is not the year of video. I think this is the year of audio.

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, I'm right. Exactly. So podcasting and video tutorials, and that is where all of a sudden we went from this crazy thing of like inbound zero, I would call myself to this journey of becoming an inbound hero. And the fun part about this too, and I think something that the viewers and listeners can learn from when Marcus said, Hey, we're going to start a podcast.

  I said, Marcus, you're crazy. I hate my voice. Now I have to fast forward to the first inbound conference we went to after we started the hubcast. And all of a sudden people in the halls were like George B. Thomas, which. How do people know my name? And then we would have conversations and they would like, dude, I'd love your podcast.

  I love your voice. And I'm like, wait, I hate my voice. They're like no, dude, you sound like a radio DJ. And here's something that's interesting. When we're thinking about building a brand, we've got to be very careful that we don't let what we think are weaknesses are stop us because many times what we think our weaknesses can totally be our strength.

  And so my voice and my presence and who I am being on audio and being on video and being consistent is what has taken this guy who was an inbound zero, just trying to figure it out, wanted to be a marketer when he grew up to where we are today. But we'll talk about that in the future.

  Christine Gritmon: I wanted to go back to something you said, which is Marcus Sheridan reached out to you and said, Hey, I think I have a use for your talents, but you skip past the part where those talents were on display. So tell me. What did Marcus see in you, and how did he come to see it? In what way were you putting yourself out there in your early days so that you could be plucked from relevant, from, relative obscurity?

  What were you putting out there back then in those early days, before the podcast, before the videos?

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, what's funny is I wasn't putting anything out on the Internet, but what I was doing was being me. And let me explain that. So as I was going through this educational journey with HubSpot Academy, because I did want to be that marketer when I grew up, right? And I was getting the certifications, I would hop on these webinars.

  And I would engage in the chat pane and I would answer the questions, but then I'd also be stupid. I'd be like M& Ms or, Skittles or, fruit of the looms or Hanes or like I would just be like funny, but engaging in these webinar chat panes and people would just start joking around and just make it fun.

  And all of a sudden, the people who are running HubSpot Academy, the people who knew these webinars, they're like, hey, this guy's kind of cool. Then the only other layer of this is every time I got a certification from HubSpot Academy, I put it on LinkedIn and I said, Hey, another one down on a mission to catch them all.

  And so there was this internal conversation at HubSpot, which Marcus talked to the folks at HubSpot. And there was this exterior explaining of my journey, my educational journey and who I was building myself into being. And out of those two things, That's how I got the phone call.

  Christine Gritmon: Sharing your journey is absolutely huge. That is everything. So I love that worked for you. All right. So you're working with Marcus Sheridan, SalesLion. You have your podcast going, you've got your videos going you went to your first inbound marketing conference after that, and okay, so let's take it from there.

  So what happened next in your brand building journey from there?

  George B. Thomas: Yep. So in 2012, when I was at that event, I saw Gary Vaynerchuk speak and Christine, I said, I want to do that. And what I meant is I wanted to stand on stage and I wanted to entertain people and I wanted to educate people. And when I started working for Marcus and we started doing the podcast and we started doing the tutorials and the video.

  The next thing was, how do we get me on more stages? And that really was the next elevation of the brand is how do we get on stages and educate? And the next thing I ended up having my first keynote, I went and keynoted an event called a min bound, which is Minnesota's inbound version. That was in like 2015. In 2015, I also got selected to do a breakout session at inbound.

  So now I was speaking at the event that just several years ago was the catalyst for where I was headed. And I've been able to speak there every year since either digitally or in person, if it was an in person event, I have been there. And so it's just this idea of being able to be on stages. Now there did come a point in time where this switched a little bit.

  We went from the sales lion to being about a team of four or five humans. We got acquired by a brand called impact brand and design. They're an awesome company, but I went from being pretty much independent person who created content and helped educate humans about HubSpot because Marcus was teaching content marketing.

  And I was teaching the HubSpot side of that content marketing for our clients. And so we got acquired. It was a team of about 45, almost 50 people. And I was like, ah, this does not compute. I do not belong here. What happened? All of a sudden I have a manager. And so I freaked out mentally and I bailed.

  And I ended up going to work for another company, which is Impulse Creative. And when I got there immediately, by the way, Remington Begg and Rachel Begg, they're amazing humans. I got there and what did I start doing? I started podcasting. I started creating content. So I started a YouTube channel called sprocket talk, and we went from zero subscribers to over 7, 000 subscribers just on HubSpot tutorials.

  So again, what was I doing? I was taking this brand that I was, had built, and I started to rebuild the brand under the George B. Thomas, but then Sprocket Talk name, Impulse Creative name, instead of the sales line name. And it got to the point where there was another crazy phenomenon happening. And that is when I would talk to people, they would say you guys have a really cool software.

  And I would be like, what do you mean you guys? And they're like you work for HubSpot, don't you? And I was like, no, I don't work for HubSpot. Here's the other crazy phenomenon is a lot of people either thought I worked for HubSpot or they thought I owned Impulse Creative, which I did neither. I was just a guy who created content consistently for people in the HubSpot ecosystem.

  And all of a sudden they started having their own perceptions and placing me in where they thought I belonged. And it wasn't even reality, but it was perception. So it was their reality. And so what I'm the reason I'm bringing this up is because I want everybody that's sitting in an organization that might be watching or listening.

  This realized like, Hey, you can become a leader. You can be a person of a thought leadership or of power. Even if you're not the owner, or even if you don't work for the organization that you're teaching the things around, like that's the power of building a personal brand inside of these organizations.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that, and it clearly worked out really well for you. You became known as the HubSpot guy. I want to roll back, because I know that you've maintained good relationships with these people and with these organizations. I want to know how Marcus Sheridan and how Impact and how, all these places reacted to it because I would imagine, what you said almost, almost sounds like what organizations kind of fear when putting people forward, which is that your name was out there more than the organizations and they didn't even connect it to the organization necessarily.

  However, I have a feeling that's not really, how it went necessarily. I think that you probably brought value to those organizations with the strength of your personal brand. So can you talk a little bit about how Your personal brand actually helped those organizations as well, because it certainly, certaInly did.

  George B. Thomas: So mindset especially at the Sales Lion, and even at Impulse Creative, the mindset was we can have personal brands inside the organization, because the only thing that does is it powers up the brand even more, right? There's only so many people that Marcus Sheridan could touch. And there's only so many people on this planet that Marcus Sheridan was made for.

  Okay. And I want everybody to understand it made for meaning the tribe that he'll be able to collect. There's another set of humans that were made for me, meaning they like the way I talk, the way I do my tutorials, the way I act as a big freaking goofball on podcast. They'll be able to be my tribe.

  And so now all of a sudden, what you can do is you can start to create these single community, but there's almost like these micro communities inside of that. By the way, we're not inventing anything new. If you think about. Let's say a mega church and you'll have multiple pastors. Why do you think that is?

  It's because different people engage with different types of humans and they'll find their place. And so at the sales line and impulse creative, it wasn't a competition of the George B. Thomas brand can't get bigger than, or sprocket talk can't get bigger than whatever it is. It was a how do we create the most buzz, the most movement and we really at that time we weren't in a because it wasn't as much of a buzzword as it is now.

  We weren't in a let's build a community mindset, but just naturally. What we are doing with who we are, we were building a community. The other mindset that I have to unpack is that Marcus, and he would say this publicly many times is that when you are willing to hire stallions, you realize that sometimes they have to run.

  And while for a timeframe, you might have them in your organization. If you're truly a great leader, you get more excited. When they head out to their next adventure, instead of getting hurt by the fact that you have been the incubator to grow them into who they can become. I have this scenario right now, by the way, in my own organization, because punch line, by the way, I've started my own company.

  We'll talk about that a little bit more, but I've been growing. All the people that are in my organization in the understanding that they may go off and do their own thing. For instance, I hired both of my sons to do podcast editing and video editing, but am helping them figure out how to start their own podcast editing and video editing business.

  I hired Jorge who is my HubSpot implementation specialist. And one of the things that I said after we got him on boarded is, dude, I want you to start doing HubSpot tutorials and putting them out on our YouTube channel and putting them out on LinkedIn. Why? Cause I want him to build his brand. for his people, for his tribe that will collect around him so that we can empower the George B. Thomas brand as a whole. And will he eventually ride off into the sunset? Maybe. Will I be sad? No, I'll be happy as hell because I know that he came into our ecosystem. I was able to grow these people and help them become the best versions of themselves. Now, that unfortunately is not the leadership that is in most organizations.

  And if I could impact anything on this planet, I would get more leaders to think that way. Now, just because they don't think that way, though, doesn't mean that you shouldn't think in the way that helps you become the best you possible. And that is always going to be by creating a personal brand around who you are, your values, your missions, and the things that you love.

  Christine Gritmon: Wow, boy, are you singing my song. I love this. Okay, so I want to make sure we get up to present day. So here we are. You are being acknowledged as the HubSpot guy. You don't work for HubSpot, but you are known as the HubSpot guy. So where do we progress from there? You've got your tutorials up, your sprocket talk, is that it?

  So where do we go from there?

  George B. Thomas: Yep. So I decide not to work at any agency. That's where we went from here. So I got to the point where I was like. And by the way, first of all, and I got to say this because I think it's a narrative that a lot of people run in their brain. I had told myself I'm a great number two to a number one. I'm a great Robin to a Batman.

  I was not allowing myself to have first player energy, but it got to the point where one morning I woke up Christine and. As, as audible as it could sound without me being crazy. I heard if you don't do this, you're going to regret it when you're 70 very specific number, by the way, I don't know why 70, but if you don't do this, you're going to regret it when you're 70.

  And so, I decided to start my own jam. And at that point, I wasn't even going to start an agency. I'm just, Hey, I'm just going to go out on my own. I'm going to do some HubSpot consulting. And so I gave Remington Bagot Impulse Creative a 60 day notice, and I worked every one of those 60 days because I was trying to give him time to replace who I was and what I did in the organization, because I was a vital part of the attract and probably convert phases of what they were doing from gaining new clients because of all the education and content we had put out there. But now it's been about a year and eight months, year and seven months. I've been doing my own thing. We went quickly from just it being me, a solopreneur to doing a Hubspot consulting to now we're literally like a HubSpot agency.

  We've got, seven employees, four contractors, more clients than I ever thought we would have. And it's just been like. Somebody basically buckled me into a rocket ship and hit the button, but it doesn't, it didn't make sense to me at first. Like why would the business be having the success that it was having as quick as it would have?

  Because one would think, Hey, you're going to start your business. You got to eke out an existence. You might be profitable by year three, who knows, but the somebody that I was talking to one of my first clients and they actually called me and they said, Hey how much does it cost to be your client?

  Because I know here in the very near future, you're not going to be able to take any new clients. And I, first of all, I said, thanks. You're crazy. He goes no. I don't think that you understand what you've been doing. He goes for 10 years now, you've been pulling back a slingshot, pulling back a slingshot hub cast podcast, sprocket talk video tutorials, he goes, the day that you put out on social that you are starting your own business you let go of the slingshot.

  He goes, so I hope you're ready. And he knew what he was talking about because it has been that kind of going out of the slingshot, fast forward just craziness in all the good ways that it could be to the point where I understand super blessed. It feels like we're cheating, but we're not cheating.

  We're here's the thing that everybody's understand building a personal brand, adding value to the world, being consistent with content, it's not cheating. It's a great marketing plan. And again, along the whole way, not by purpose, but a lot by just oops, did I do that? Like the Steve Urkel thing.

  We were building this crazy marketing plan for the day that we decided just to go do our own thing. And so you're right. Like I get emails that will say Hey, you've got to work with this guy. He's the goat. Now, Christine, I would never call myself the goat of anything, but that's the perception.

  Therefore, that's their reality. That's where they've placed me based on something that most people would call extraordinary. Now, here's what I want to say. I don't necessarily think that I've done anything extraordinary, meaning each day it was about a video tutorial or each week it was about a podcast episode.

  That's not extraordinary. However. When you do that consistently for 10 years. Now that's extraordinary.

  Christine Gritmon: It certainly is. And the great thing is you are doing your own thing. You are running your own agency, but you are. You are still working with adjacent companies. You do stuff with HubSpot. You do stuff with Marketing Profs. So I want to talk to you a little bit about that stuff and how that fits into your whole personal brand ecosystem because you don't have to be lending your personal brand to other entities, but you are because there's alignment there.

  So can you talk a little bit about those things that you're doing and how you decide which opportunities like that to do?

  George B. Thomas: Yeah. So a lot of it, and again, because it's all about the humans and being human, a lot of my decisions are truly made with gut. Sometimes I try to stay out of my mind because my mind can be a little bit crazy, like many of our minds. But I do choose to work with different brands. So for instance, marketing profs was a client before I had my own company, meaning when I worked at impulse creative, one of the things that marketing profs paid us to do was just for me to show up and emcee their webinars. Okay. So I had been doing that for about a year through impulse creative. And then when I decided to make the jump of being my own boss marketing profs was actually looking for somebody to host their podcast.

  And and Hanley. Came to me and said, I'd really like you to be the host of the podcast. First of all, I love Ann Handley. She's freaking amazing. She's a great human. She helps other humans be better humans with everything that she does. So I

  Christine Gritmon: She also has a strong no assholes policy. That's something that I really respect about Ann Handley as well. She will only work with good people, so if you're in her ecosystem, not only have you gotten the good person stamp, but you know you'll be working with other good people and supporting good things.

  George B. Thomas: that's it. And we aligned so much in that because my policy is no douchebags allowed. Like the only rule that we have no douchebags allowed. So what's fun. Is marketing process became really one of my first clients when we went out to do our own thing and it had nothing to do with truly what we were known for, which was HubSpot, but it was this podcast and it was the webinars and emceeing.

  And so literally every week I'm doing a MC project for them. Every week we're putting on a podcast for them. And I love it. And. The reason I love it is because I love learning. So I get to interview smart people like yourself. I like educating others. So we get to create this podcast and put it out to the world.

  And it's just an amplification of the brand. Now, here's the funny thing. I noticed some similarities. I had been doing HubSpot tutorials. Hey, you guys have a great software, meaning they thought that I worked for. HubSpot. When I started doing the B2B stuff, so Marketing Smarts podcast and the emceeing a year later, I was featured in an article of one of the top 12 B2B marketers to pay attention to.

  I've never once said that I was a B2B marketer, a B2C, a B2G, a B2 anything. I'm actually just a guy who focuses on the humans and how we can make businesses that those humans work at better, but because of being on a B2B a podcast now also on my brand started to get associated with business to business, which I am not complaining.

  I don't care. It's literally like another chink in the belt of the brand. So what does that allow me to do? Well, It allows me to walk into B2B spaces. It allows me to walk into inbound spaces. It allows me to just go into these places, be who I am, and allow the people, the tribe, the community, to dictate their reality, how I fit in it.

  And that's a wonderful place to actually be able to sit in and understand that people are going to accept you for who you are, just be you be unique, be human, be mindful, be like, there's a whole framework right that we're working on that we want to talk about when we talk about it's all about the humans and me being human, like there's some elements in there that we want people to understand this is what we mean. So eventually we're going to talk about that more and it's going to be on one of the two podcasts, maybe both podcasts that we're doing now inside the organization. We might make some videos about it. Listen, if you're listening, I'm not creating any new strategy.

  I'm just telling you what historically we've done and what in the future we're going to continue to do to allow people to get to know who we are.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, one thing I find really interesting about this whole story is that, as you've said, you are a human, you're not a marketer, you're not a B2B marketer, you are a human who's about the humans. That is the value that you bring to the table. However, you have done this with a very specific vehicle, and I don't mean your content types like podcasting, I mean HubSpot.

  So you have built your brand. within the vehicle of another brand. And you've tried different things. You're not afraid to move around. You're not afraid to break free of constraints. This is something that, this is a pathway and guardrails that you've chosen and that you continue to choose.

  So I'd love to hear a little bit about what's behind That. Because you could easily have said, you know what, since people are responding to the human hero for humans part, I'm gonna go be a coach. I'm gonna be a business coach. I'm gonna go do, this other thing. I'm gonna go make my own software.

  But you've chosen not to do that. You've chosen to stay within. I'm going to help bring HubSpot to more people. So I'd love to hear a bit about what's behind that, how that has worked. Any objections to that I hear?

  George B. Thomas: No.

  yes,

  Christine Gritmon: you've chosen to do that.

  George B. Thomas: yeah, I'm going to yes. And you're there and you'll see what I mean here in a minute. So here's the thing inside of HubSpot, because HubSpot was a tool, it allows me to be me. Now I'm a recovering youth pastor. I think that's why for me, it's all about the human and about being human.

  And in all of my videos or most of my videos got to be careful of absolutes. I would end with this tagline of don't forget to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And there are things in my life that I've learned along the way that are Pointing to make sure that you're focused on happiness and joy and living the best life that you can make sure you're focused on being a humble human, not a narcissist or egotistical because if you get, you know, ego is kind of the enemy helpful, meaning add value to the world.

  And what's fun is it was a vehicle for me to have that narrative to show up. And the reason that I was showing up that way is because the fundamental principle of what I was trying to do is get more people to show up that way. Because here's the thing in 2012, when I went to that conference, HubSpot was saying, don't call me customer, call me human. And I was like, now that right there is something I can get behind. And so I feel like I've diligently been being that human element of don't call me customer, call me human of the HubSpot ecosystem the entire time, like doing my part to keep them on the narrow path of being this type of community of being a value based, we're not competitors.

  We can all help each other. Let's just make this the best ecosystem possible. And I've just been doing my part in that. Now, here's what I'll tell you is the reason I chose to stay there is because it was working. And the thing that you're diagnosing too is one thing that another buddy of mine said one to me one time and it blew my mind.

  But I think if you're building a personal brand, you have to leverage this. He said, dude, you are a transition specialist to which I said, what the heck does that even mean? He goes, I watched you go from being a designer developer. To somebody who is going to learn marketing and learn HubSpot, he goes, then I saw you go from that to doing podcasting and from that to doing video.

  But the whole time you're doing podcast and video, you were doing marketing and you're doing HubSpot, but you are transitioning into these things. Now it's like transition into AI because AI is a hot topic, right? So you're adding all these elements you're pivoting and you're transitioning into these things in these hot pockets, in these hot moments.

  And you're just like creating the superhero tool belt of things that you can do. Listen, if you're going to build a personal brand, you have to have curiosity, right? I already talked about consistency, but curiosity. And the ability to learn things and implement things along the way. And it's because you might be teaching something, but you have to learn this thing to teach it.

  You have to learn this thing to be able to do it. And so that's idea of pivoting or transitioning and curiosity and understanding that it's going to be a windy road. Now, where I want to get to, and I'll pause before we actually go deep into this, I, when I started the business I did start a podcast, it's called a hub heroes podcast.

  We named the company George B. Thomas LLC, which we're probably going to name because it needs to be an agency name, next year, sometime we'll probably come out with that. But along the way, I realized one thing, Christine, for the last 10 years, I've been helping humans with HubSpot

  Christine Gritmon: Okay.

  George B. Thomas: and everything that I've taught happy, helpful, humble human.

  And the way that I teach people to do marketing and sales now, because by the way, it's gone past marketing. It's marketing sales service. I've had 41 HubSpot certifications, been a HubSpot accredited trainer did onboarding for HubSpot themselves for two years when I was an impulse creative, but everything that I would teach, I would realize it was predicated on the fact that they were good humans.

  And not everybody comes with their business hat on and understands how to be a good human. Or some people even have lived a life that have forced them not to be or understand what being a good human and showing up as a good human is. And so because of the launch of the business because of the mindsets that changed in me from a, I'm a great number two to a now I have to have first player energy.

  We've also started something new. And again, I'm not gonna create a brand new strategy. I'm just going to rinse and repeat what we've historically done. But you mentioned go be a coach or be, by the way, I feel like I am a business coach. It just happens to be wrapped up in HubSpot, marketing, sales, service, that type of thing.

  But we're literally getting ready to launch a thing called Beyond Your Default. Which is now, instead of just helping humans with HubSpot, it's just going to be about just helping humans.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that. Which is what you've been about this whole time. And it explains your story too. You've tapped your potential. Just in increasing ways over the years. And here we are. I love it.

  George B. Thomas: Here we are.

  Christine Gritmon: George, this has been absolutely amazing. I would encourage anyone to look at all the stuff George has done whether you're interested in HubSpot or inbound marketing or not.

  Regardless, George will inspire you. So George, tell people at home, where can they find you? Why should they find you? And what will they find there?

  George B. Thomas: Yeah, so first of all, what you'll find there is just somebody who fundamentally cares about your future success, whether it be as a person or as a business, somebody who's ready to have a conversation, ready to listen and give you advice, whether that's working with us or not working with us. I just know, That is my job to sow the seeds, to be a blessing and whatever happens will happen.

  That's just how I roll now, where you can find me. If you're looking for like marketing sales service help you have HubSpot or you're thinking about getting HubSpot, then just head over to georgebthomas. com. That's the website for right now that everything lives at. If you just love podcasts and listening to podcasts, you can listen to the hub heroes podcast, because that's our kind of HubSpot business marketing sales service specific podcasts.

  Now, if you're listening to this and you're like, I just need like a mega dose of what just happened on this episode. Almost every day of my life, then I would suggest you go to beyond your default dot com. There's podcast episodes there. There's a free newsletter there. And there is a community that we're building out there that are these folks who are either, in a fork in the road of their life, or they feel stuck and they feel like they're destined to go somewhere, or maybe you were just pouring a freaking high achiever. Maybe if you're one of those three types of people, then beyond your default in the content that you're going to find there and becoming a better human um, having somebody to traverse the a hill of success or the lane of significance that you might be chasing. That's where I would send them.

  Christine Gritmon: Ah, I love it. And I can personally vouch for this, people. George actually will talk to you and wants you to succeed. That's not a gotcha there. Like he will do it. So reach out. Thank you so much, George. This has been amazing.

  George B. Thomas: Thanks, Christine.

  Christine Gritmon: And thank you so much for listening, whether you are listening to Let's Talk About Brand the podcast on your podcast player of choice, or if you're here for the video podcast on YouTube. Either way, please do subscribe.

  If you liked it, please do leave a comment or a review, and please do join us next week when I'll be back here with another guest expert talking about another element of personal branding.

  Bye!

S4 Ep06: Let’s Talk About Personal Brand Impact

Have you ever wanted to have a bigger impact on your personal brand? Have you thought the only brands that can have a big impact on our culture are the big consumer brands? Think again!

Today I’m talking with Emmanuel Probst about exactly that. One of the best ideas that we talk about is how your personal brand is a vessel for an idea. It is a way to relate to people and to express yourself and who you really are. 

To do that we first define what a brand and culture is and we discuss what it means to make a measurable change in a culture. We also talked about how you find the message that your brand will be the vessel for. Then we wrap it up with a marketing lesson from Picasso. 

Emmanuel Probst is the head of global thought leadership at Ipsos (one of the largest market research firms). He also teaches brand strategy at UCLA, and he's the author of “Assemblage: The Art and Science of Brand Transformation.” 

Tune in as we talk about how personal brands can make an impact: 

[00:00] Welcome Emmanual Probst!
[03:09] How do you define a brand?
[06:52] How do you define culture?
[08:22] At what point are you considered to have a personal brand?
[11:20] Should you follow your gut or data when it comes to marketing your brand
[14:02] Is there a separation between the person inside the brand and they things that are selling?
[17:51] How can you find the core message for your personal brand?
[21:20] What roles do influencers play? 
[24:46] What marketing lessons can we learn from Picasso?

Contact  Emmanuel Probst:
Linkedin: Emmanuel Probst
Book: Assemblage, the Art and Science of Brand Transformation

• Read the Show Transcript Here

  Christine Gritmon:

  Hello and welcome to Let's Talk About Brand I'm your host, Christine Gritmon and this podcast is coming at you every single week with a different guest expert talking about a different element of branding, especially personal branding. Today's guest, like many of our guests, has experience in both the worlds of consumer brands, and personal branding.

  He is the head of global thought leadership, among other things, at Ipsos, which is an enormous market research firm. He also teaches brand strategy at UCLA, and he's also an author. He is a Emmanuel Probst. His most recent book is called Assemblage, The Art and Science of Brand Transformation. And one of the things that we're going to be talking today, talking about today, is how in order to shape culture and kind of shift the world on its axis a little bit, You don't necessarily have to be a huge consumer brand.

  There are big personal brands doing that, and there are even small personal brands having their own impact on culture in their own way. It really ripples out. You can create a personal brand that really... It's a vessel for an idea which is something that we get into in the interview. So today we're going to talk about, first of all, what we're even talking about when we talk about brands, when we talk about personal brands, when we talk about culture and cultural impact, what are we talking about there?

  We're also going to talk about impact, about how you can make sure that your brand does have an impact no matter how big or small you are. We also get into something that I know, especially the smallest of new baby personal brands struggle with, which is How do you find that idea that you are a vessel for, and how do you start having an impact in your own world?

  You don't have to think on a global scale when it comes to the impact your personal brand is going to make, but thinking about the impact you want your personal brand to make is a very important part of the equation. So we're going to talk about all of that with Emanuel Probst here today. I'm so excited to have him on.

  All right, so without any further ado, we are going to bring him on.

  Hello, Emmanuel! Welcome!

  Emmanuel Probst: Christine, thank you for having me on the show.

  Christine Gritmon: Thanks for being on. So you actually reached out to me after an episode that I had last season with Marcus Collins. We're talking about branding and culture. And that actually taps into a bit of what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about how personal brands can shift culture in a really big way.

  When we were talking before we went live, we're talking a little bit about, some of those brands that aren't just consumer brands like Coca Cola. They are people, they are places, they are bigger than just a label on a product. So first, I'm gonna back up, and again, it's a really basic question, but through hundreds of interviews, there have been, slightly different nuances on this.

  I'm gonna ask you, Emmanuel, how do you define a brand?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, the way I define a brand is the way they define the brand and they meaning the individuals, not even the consumers, meaning the audience. So it's a bit counterintuitive to put it this way, but as marketing professionals, we know so much about our brands. Anyway, we know so much about our category the way we define it. It's fine, it's useful, but the core definition of a brand is how do they define it. They meaning your audience. Definition of a brand is that. How do they perceive your company, your services, your products? It is their definition that matters most, not ours, and our job is to help shape this definition they have in their mind.

  Christine Gritmon: So one thing that we were talking about in the green room, you were pointing out how a brand is not just Coca Cola, Las Vegas is a brand, the Pope is a brand Bono from U2 is a brand. So what makes those three very different perspectives, what makes those brands, whereas, my friend's house cat is maybe not a brand what sort of makes that difference there in terms of being a brand in a larger sense?

  Emmanuel Probst: First off, they're all similar because they all try to stand out. Las Vegas competes with San Francisco, Los Angeles, and arguably destinations for gambling in Asia. And U2 competes with other bands, maybe like the Rolling Stones, just like Justin Timberlake might compete with Justin Bieber, and Rihanna might compete with other artists, right?

  So we all have a competitive set. If you will. What makes them different is their uniqueness. It's how distinctive they are. It is. It might be their distinctive brand assets in terms of Las Vegas. You can think of the lights and you can think of the strip and you can think of a Bellagio fountain. You can think of the Las Vegas sign.

  Paris is going to be the Eiffel Tower, and U2 is going to be not even about the music, but it's going to be about his demeanor and him wearing his glasses, for example. If you think about the Pope, he's very distinctive in terms of, again, I'm not getting into His religious beliefs even, but he is very unique in terms of the way he dresses and of the way he presents himself in front of an audience.

  So distinctive brand assets might be specific manifestations of a brand if you want. That can be clothing, that can be colors, that can be sounds, and then. What meaning do we associate to those different brands? And that conceptually is not different for Coca Cola than it is for Las Vegas or for the Pope.

  What are the meanings? What are the perceptions? What are the unique meanings and unique perceptions that we, the audience, Associate with these brands.

  Christine Gritmon: And that leads us very nicely into kind of the next place that I want to go with this, which is how brands, and especially personal brands, even individuals, can really impact culture. But before we dive into that, I would love to hear how you would define culture as someone who is involved in this kind of marketing landscape, which surely impacts your definition here.

  So how would you define culture?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I actually did quite a lot of research on this for my prior books. So for my first book, that was Brand hacks. And of course, I'm picking up on culture in my latest book assemblage. A culture is loosely defined world. And how we can summarize it is to say it has to do with your beliefs with customs, with the activities you engage in and with culture makers, the world around you. Specific brands help shape culture like U2 for example specific people, politics. So culture is about your core beliefs and Activities and the way these evolves around you in light of the current show and environment.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, as we know, there are certain people who have managed to have sufficiently Impactful and magnetic personal brand as to be able to impact not only the immediate people who engage with them and interact with them directly, but can have a larger impact that can impact something as large as a culture, though cultures can be all sizes, of course, as well.

  But what are we talking about when we even talk about a personal brand? Do you feel like everyone has a personal brand? Do you feel like there's a certain kind of tipping point where you become a personal brand? What kind of, what people get to define themselves as brands, is what I'm getting at here, in your opinion.

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, people get to define themselves as brands the moment they choose to. So everyone has the opportunity to create, define, grow a personal brand. Now it's up to you to do it and to decide if it's something you need to do. And with that said, in most occupations, you. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you need to sell, which means you need to create a personal brand.

  And what I mean by this is if you're a dentist or if you're an orthodontist, or if you're a lawyer, or if you're a personal trainer, or if you're a gardener, or if you're an accountant, all these are occupations where We as consumers have dozens of options to choose from. So though its not intuitive for your business and maybe your personality to create this personal brand, you're going to need to do this because those fields are just as competitive as everything else.

  THat's why a personal brand is important. That's what a personal brand is about. You create a personal brand the instant you choose to do so. and then a personal brand needs to be attuned to culture. And eventually, I guess the difference between a small and a bigger personal brand is It's ability to either embrace culture and eventually to make culture, to impact culture.

  In other words, are you jumping on the bandwagon and you're tuned to culture, which is great, which is good, which is what you need to do. And you take it a step further and you start defining culture as a change agent.

  Christine Gritmon: Absolutely. Now you work with Ipsos, which is, one of the world's leading market research agencies. So there's an analytical component in there as well. So I'm sure that you have seen, not just from the sort of gut driven vibes perspective, which tends to be honestly the way I tend to do things.

  things But also from an actual, data perspective, some people with personal brands are able to get to the point where they are really impacting things way beyond themselves. Putting on your market researcher hat for a moment. Cause you're in that world. How? How do people tend to do that to a point where it is actually statistically significant?

  What are some ways that personal change makers do make measurable change on culture from a marketing perspective? Does that make sense? I'm asking in a weird, circuitous way. But what are some ways that tend to tip that, to move that needle there?

  Emmanuel Probst: You said two things that are important. Christine, you said you do things with your guts, and then you spoke about measurement. When you're a really small brand and you get started, I think it's completely fine to do things with your gut. And in fact, you should always follow your instincts, your creativity, and building a personal brand means emphasizing who you are.

  It is not transforming you into someone you're not. And as such, you should, regardless of the data you have access to or not, you should follow your instinct and you should magnify your strengths. That's what building a personal brand is about. It doesn't matter how big your brain becomes, you should never lose sight of your own personality, your creativity, what your instinct guides you to do. Or else you just become a poster child and you really don't want to be this.

  Let's talk about measurement now. That's where the biggest brands have an advantage. Again, when I say a big brand, it might be Coca Cola, but it might be also Las Vegas, or it might be Justin Timberlake, Gordon Ramsay, and Taylor Swift.

  They're big because they have a lot of reach, and therefore they can get very scientific in terms of the outcomes they measure and whatnot.

  Silence. You said I work with Ipsos, and we're indeed one of the largest market research agencies in the world. I might surprise you, but conceptually the way you measure Coca Cola and the way you measure the impact of Taylor Swift is not that different.

  That is, how do you drive, how does the brand drive different attributes? What are the attributes people associate with the brand and what are the outcomes the brand drives. And so you measure these in isolation, but the way you do things are not conceptually that different for Taylor Swift than it be for Apple or REI or Patagonia.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, one thing that you mentioned before is that ultimately as personal brands, we are still trying to sell something, generally speaking. Whether we are an executive with a company, and we are representatives of that company. If we are solopreneurs like myself, and we are the product.

  If you're someone like Taylor Swift, where music is the product. But of course, it goes so far beyond music, in a case like hers, to become a cultural phenomenon. One thing that a lot of people really seem to worry about when they're first stepping forward as a personal brand is wondering about that balance between keeping it focused on the thing or the service or the whatever that they are trying to sell versus keeping it focused on who they are as a person. So what are some of your thoughts about how people can find that balance and about how that balance may even shift over time as their personal brand develops that critical mass that makes it magnetic?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I'll reflect on Taylor Swift and if I may on my personal experience and of publishing books. You said music is the product. And I may slightly rephrase this and say her music is a vessel for an idea. It's a vessel. It's a way to communicate the way she feels and a way for her to relate to people.

  But really what makes money is to sell tickets to her shows. Sure. She might make money from downloads, but that's literally anecdotal. If you compare, the money she makes from, basically feeling stadiums with dozens of thousands of people is the same thing in the book business. You can sell books, but frankly, the revenue.

  from books is anecdotal compared to the revenue that comes from consulting or from speaking engagements or workshops and so on and so forth. And her music is a vessel for an idea and a way to relate to people. And a book is a vessel for an idea and a way to relate to people and to express yourself and who you really are.

  And. Make yourself unique, different, and relatable at the same time so that you can sell the product. So another way to put it and to really simplify things is Taylor Swift doesn't have to sell herself in her songs. She just had to tell people the way she feels so that in turn she can sell 200, 400. 3, 000, 30, 000 tickets.

  So it's the same thing as a practitioner. If you're a cosmetic surgeon, you need to be omnipresent on social media because people will care more about your social media activity and following than they will about your qualifications. And on social media, you're going to show. your art and how your personality translates in your relationship with your patients so that then people book appointments and surgeries with you procedures, I should say.

  Christine Gritmon: I love what you said about how it's not about, the external product that is being sold so much as being a vessel for an idea. That is fantastic. That also can be really intimidating for a lot of people, you know, kind of figuring out. Go to Simon Sinek, start with why, but that's really the essence of a personal brand, really.

  I like to think of it as your job is task based. But your brand, who you are, is not task based. It is based in something deeper that is transferable between different jobs, between different skills. What are some ways people can maybe get to the essence of what the underlying idea that they are a vessel for could be when figuring out their personal brand?

  Because not everyone's going out there to change the world. Some people are like, I just want to sell stuff. But when it comes down to it, a powerful personal brand, no matter what it is you are nominally selling. is going to have a much greater impact and be a lot more flexible if you are indeed a vessel for an idea.

  So what are some ways people can get started identifying what that could be for them? Because it's inside of them, but it's hard to find sometimes.

  Emmanuel Probst: yeah, you used a an important word. You said it can be intimidating and I get that and I agree. There's a good news. The good news is in the world we live in now, in the world we live in today, it's okay to embrace vulnerability and imperfections and differences. And you don't have, not only you don't have to be perfect, but in fact, you don't want to.

  There is no longer this perception, and there shouldn't be, that success is about being tough, and being the big guy, and with the big voice, and all that. No. Just reflect on who you really are. How do you do this? Just think of the things you like to do, and maybe the movies you like to watch, and the books you like to read, the podcasts you like to listen to, and think of the attributes that define you. You don't have to go too deep. I'm not going to take you through a psychology session here, nor would I be qualified to do but really, what do you like to do? What are the colors you like? What is the type of music you like? What are the tones you like? And That is how you're going to shape this unique personal brand of yours.

  But again, I insist that imperfect is perfect. That is, authenticity is most important to people. And let me link this to very big brands. They know this, and they enable this in their marketing now. If you think of Dove, Dove is a massive brand. It's a uni level brand. It's a global brand. Dove embarked a few years ago on what they call the Dove Beauty Project, to reveal people's real beauty.

  What this means is instead of using perfect models in their advertisements, they started using everyday people. And that was a few years ago, and they continue on this trajectory. Most recently, Ogilvy, that is a large advertising agency, Ogilvy in the UK pledged to stop using Photoshop. That is to stop retouching people and pictures to make them perfect.

  So the point I'm making here is even the biggest brands in the world are embracing imperfections. And the good news is As a personal brand, as an individual, let alone when you're getting started, is you just have to embrace this. You don't have to walk it backwards from perfection to imperfection.

  You're already authentic. You're already vulnerable. You're already imperfect. So now you just have to push this forward and bring it to your audience. Just like Taylor Swift does.

  Christine Gritmon: That actually brings me to something that's been in a special interest of mine lately, which is that, big brands are starting to recognize more and more that one of the kind of hidden superpowers they can really tap into is their people. They're actual humans but that could be a bit of a tricky thing for some of them because I know the old school mentality was if our people are out there doing their own thing and being their own strong personal brands, first of all, other companies might poach them.

  Second of all, they might be, too preoccupied with building their own name that they're, neglecting our brand or whatever. But I think that's changing. I think brands are recognizing more and more that the fact that a company is made up of humans can be an incredible force. And then, of course, there's the fact that more and more brands are working with influencers who are their own independent personal brands.

  I'm curious about your take on both of those phenomena.

  The idea of activating your people and recognizing the strong, incredible, potentially very influential people who you have within your own organization, but then also borrowing influence from professional influencers. How do you feel both of these things are really impacting the way that brands can help shape culture?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah. So first, Christine, that's a very good news for our listeners today is you don't have to walk backwards. You said big brands are trying to become more personal, more authentic, closer to people. Again, if you're an individual, you're already personal. You also spoke about big brands trying to empower their people to be the voice of the brand, if you will.

  The truth is, This is very hard to scale. And yes, brands are trying to work in that direction, but it's very hard to control. And that's a problem you really don't have if you're a sole practitioner or if you're a small business with, 10, 20, 30, 100 employees, and you have 1,2,3,4,5 locations. It's a very different deal when you're Starbucks and you operate 11, 000 stores.

  From the get go, that's a problem you don't have to solve. Now you spoke about influencers and the original value proposition of influencers is that is to reduce the social distance between the brand and the audience. Silence. What this means is we like influencers because they're relatable.

  In other words, they are just like your neighbor and they live. Or at least they're supposed to live in a place just like yours, in sharp contrast with the likes of George Clooney or big personalities that we don't live like. 99. 5 percent of us, if you will.

  Now about hiring influencers to work with you, enabling that reach, be careful what you wish for.

  Number one they are following and how many people they can really reach. Look under the lid. Is that real? What is the level of engagement? They have with their audience. And number two, what is the fit between both influencers and your product? And in other words, you don't want just any influencer to represent your brand.

  What other brands do they work with? What is their personal narrative? What is their creative style? And. Does this all align with your, when your product, the message you want to convey with your audience.

  So last but not least is I would look towards smaller influencers when they're not as expensive, but also they have a much higher engagement, much better intimacy with their audience, with their followers.

  And last but not least, But they are likely not overwhelmed with brands, and therefore they will give your brand more of a voice, if you will.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, this is going to be a little bit of a spoiler for your latest book, Assemblage, but one thing that I was very intrigued about when I read some of the bullet points on it is, you mentioned what Picasso knew, and what all marketers need to learn. I'm very intrigued by that bit. So hopefully people will still go out and read Assemblage, even if they get this spoiler, but I'm intrigued by that.

  So what did Picasso, who was inarguably an incredible cultural shifting personal brand. What did he know that that we as marketers should learn?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah. By the way, Christine, about Assemblage, I have two good news. Not only people can read it, but they can also listen to the book. It's available as an Audible format. That's the first good news. The second good news is I'm not the one reading the book. And they can listen to the book without the accent

  But back to your question, Christine, there is an important chapter in this book called The Assemblers and what Picasso knew Well, the artists we admire the most, like Picasso, they're talented, but not always in the ways we think, meaning the real talent is often assembling. To deliver on the artistic vision rather than necessarily creating the art themselves.

  So what I mean by this is the likes of Andy Warhol, for example Jeff Koons today. They have plenty of people working for them. The same applies in cooking. Gordon Ramsay doesn't cook. Alain Ducasse Doesn't cook. The same applies in music whereby a famous dj, let's say like David gta, by definition, assembles samples from other musics.

  Phil Williams does not know how to read music. That's a fact. That's not gossip. He had to admit under oath that he didn't know how to read music, yet he sold millions and millions of records. Digital Kaen is the same thing. He's a music producer. So what all these people have in common. Is the pick and choose from talents, from samples, from culture, what makes sense and the symbol the samples is bits and bobs, if you will, into a new product, into a new service, into a new narrative, into a new story that they're going to bring to their audience.

  The second thing we can learn from Picasso is, yeah, he's known for his great paintings. But beyond that, he was a prolific artist, also creating china and pottery and sculptures. And the point being that he had such a wide range of products, such a wide range of items that he could sell to his audience.

  He started poor, but by the way, he died really rich. The point being is, yeah, he could sell a 50, 70, 200, 000 paintings, along with plates and lithographs that were more accessible to a wider audience. As such, he was one of the first marketers to exemplified to pioneer, I will say, the concept of line expansion.

  Christine Gritmon: So I'd like to hear a bit more about that line extension, because the thing is, when we think of Picasso, most people do really think about his paintings and stuff. And that actually brings me brings us to another point, which is that, It's not always about the one thing that you do.

  Sometimes the thing that you do that kind of leads the way allows people to discover the other things. But, line extensions, I'd like to hear a little bit more about what you mean by that. Especially when it comes to things like that.

  Emmanuel Probst: A great analogy, very relevant, I believe, is the fashion industry. In the fashion industry, when you look at Christian Dior or Balmain or Balenciaga, fill the blank, they have catwalks twice a year and they impress a very small crowd of people attending those catwalks, maybe 150 people, if that, in Paris, Milan, New York. How many dresses do they really sell? A dozen, if that. And those are really expensive and beautiful by all means, but not really practical. The point is not to sell dresses at catwalks. The point is to demonstrate the creativity to make culture. Influence culture in that process to get as much media attention as you can.

  So that in turn, you can sell in the case of Balmain, a 650 t shirt, or you can sell some perfume or some cologne or some handbag, or some ready to wear items. That are very scalable and extremely profitable. And so the point is, as a Customer, when I buy that T-shirt or when I buy that perfume, I'm being part of the dream.

  I'm being part of this aspiration, this creativity, this identity, this culture that is on the catwalk and it's my way of accessing this. So that's really. How you can think of it in terms of world architecture is you have those leading products that ironically don't really sell. They do, but not that much, but they're here to build this perception.

  It's the same thing in cooking. You have very few 3 Star Michelins in the world. In France, I think you have about 11 or 12 of them. And you have a few dozens in the U. S. That's really not that many. Gordon Ramsay doesn't make, I mean he does, but his main source of profit is certainly not that three star Michelin that he has in London.

  The point is to sell cookbooks and to sell TV shows and to sell speaking engagements and to sell workshops and of course to drive traffic in burger restaurants that are way more profitable and move way more volume down. Any 3 Star restaurant you can think of.

  Christine Gritmon: All right, so we've talked about artists and large brands and things like that and people who have become kind of larger than life, connected to this larger kind of cultural zeitgeist and shifted it with their ideas. Now let's take it down as we round this interview up, let's talk about a few things that a person listening at home, maybe they're just trying to do their business.

  They're not trying to sell out stadiums or anything like that. When it comes down to it, as humans, a lot of us do feel a calling to be a vessel for an idea. So what are a few things on a smaller scale that someone listening right now could do to get started in seeing their personal brand and seeing themselves being a bit more as, not just sales driven, but being more kind of a vessel for those ideas that they hold dear in a way that will at least shape their world and the world immediately around them.

  What are some things people can look at and start doing to get started there?

  Emmanuel Probst: Yeah, I think you want to do two things. Two things that you can do immediately. Number one, what are the five, six, seven unique attributes that define you? Or maybe those attributes are not unique in and of themselves, but they make you unique in combination. So what are the 5, 6, 7 things that you'd like people to remember about you if you meet them for the first time at a cocktail party? That's going to be the foundation for your personal brand. And then you're going to emphasize that authenticity. In terms of activation, if you will, that's where you're going to use those, what we call performance marketing and the performance metrics, meaning you're going to look At how many reactions you generated, how many people are subscribing to your content, and then lower in your funnel, how many leads you generated, it can be how many appointments you generated, and how many of those appointments did you convert.

  into a deal. And then those clients of yours, you're going to want to drive recommendations. You're going to want to drive word of mouth one because this is free advertising for you and two because people trust their friends and family way more so than they trust advertising. So you're going to want to work on this core client base if you will so they advocate and spread the good world for you So that's really how you on a very small scale.

  That's how you're going to Work out your funnel you define your brand strategy and I almost want to say if you really get started don't spend tons of time. Don't overthink it. Spend some time on this, but don't overthink this. Who am I, and who do I want to appear to be to my audience? What are the attributes that make me unique in, in combination, right?

  And then you go to markets and you analyze who's Performance metrics that I just described. Now, later on, when you grow your brand, when you become bigger, you're going to want to worry more about your competitive set and how they articulate their message and how you can difference use and how you can compete with them and all that.

  But that would be 3, 6, 9 months down the line. It's not something you need to do today.

  Christine Gritmon: All right thank you so much for all of this. This has been wonderful and definitely very inspirational, honestly.

  I'm excited to play a bigger game with my own personal brand now, and I hope everyone listening is as well. All right, Emmanuel, so tell us. Where can we find you? Why should we find you?

  And what will we find there?

  Emmanuel Probst: Really liking your questions Christine, they're clearly articulated, but also very different from what I usually hear on podcasts. Where can we find me? I'm on LinkedIn at Emmanuel Probst, and you can also find my book Assembly, which is the Art and Science of Brand Transformation. It's available in bookstores.

  Importantly, it's available on Amazon. You can buy the hardcover. You can also access The electronic version of the book and as we said earlier last but not least you can listen to the book if you want Why well because I produce ideas For brands every single day, that is, if you subscribe to my content on LinkedIn, for example, you will access tons of ideas several times a week.

  Every day you will see my comments on the largest brands and several times a week you will benefit from the guidance I provide. And why? Because I combine academic. Knowledge through my books and my studying and obviously my academic background with practitioners experience of spending 20 plus years counseling some of the biggest brands in the world.

  So I bring this knowledge and this expertise to you. I was going to say at a fraction of the cost, which is the price of a book, or even for free, if you want to just read what I publish on LinkedIn.

  Christine Gritmon: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here and I hope everyone is inspired to get out there and make whatever change, make some ripples, make an impact and who knows how far out into the culture it can ripple out. Thank you very much for being here, Emmanuel.

  Emmanuel Probst: Thank you so much, Christine. Thank you to our listeners for being with us today.

  Christine Gritmon: And thank you for listening to Let's Talk About Brand, whether you are listening on your podcast player of choice or if you're joining us for the video podcast on YouTube. Either way, please do make sure to subscribe, leave a comment or a review if you like it, and be sure to tune in next week when I will be right here with another very smart guest expert talking about another specific angle of branding.

  Bye!

S4 Ep05: Let's Talk About Design for Personal Brands

What comes to mind when you think of personal brand design? Is it fonts? Colors? Logos? Images? Templates? All of the above? Or maybe none of the above? 

That is not all that uncommon, a lot of people when they think of design, think of a consumer brand or something like that, or, some big corporation, but personal brands also need some design love too.

Today I’m talking with brand designer, Amy Walker from Bloom Creative about, what goes into brand design, what type of visual branding is useful for a personal brand to have, what brand parameters make sense for a personal brand to have and so much more!

While there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to personal brand design, Amy has worked with many people to design their personal brands, so she's going to tell us her expert opinion on what are good things to think about when it comes to designing your personal brand.

Tune in as we talk about the following design choices for personal brands: 

[00:00] Welcome Amy Walters!
[02:36] What is the core of every personal brand design?
[04:05] How does color psychology play into selecting a brand color?
[10:22] What is important when it comes to visual branding for personal brands?
[13:03] Should personal brands have a logo?
[18:08] How do photography and brand images come into play with personal branding?
[20:39] What are some of the digital assets that are needed for a personal brand design? 
[24:11] What is included in a personal brand design guide? 
[26:03] What are the limits for colors and fonts in a personal brand?
[30:03] What should be taken into consideration as a brand evolves over time?

Contact Amy Walters
Linkedin: Amy Walters
Instagram: Amy Walters
Website: Bloom Creative

• Read the Show Transcript Here

  Christine Gritmon: Hello, welcome to Let's Talk About Brand. I'm your host, Christine Gritmon, coming at you every single week, talking with a different guest expert about branding, especially personal branding.

  Today, I'm speaking to designer Amy Walters of Bloom Creative. I saw Amy speak in London at a digital women event.

  And she was talking about design and AI at that point which is something she talks a lot about, but that is not the topic of today's show. What I really wanted to talk to Amy about today was about design and personal branding. A lot of people, when they think of design, they think of, consumer brand or something like that, or, some big corporation, but personal brands also need some design love too.

  So Amy and I are going to talk today about, first of all, what goes into brand design, because a brand is not the design itself. So Amy definitely is very thoughtful with her process. She's going to give us some really great insights as to the things we need to give thought to before just slapping on a color and a font and calling it a brand.

  We're also going to talk about what type of visual branding is useful for a personal brand to have. We generally don't have things like packaging or brochures or any of that. What sort of things do we need designed? Should we work with a designer on? But also what sort of brand parameters make sense for a personal brand to have?

  Do you need a logo? Do you need colors, fonts? How many? All of that. While there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to brand design, Amy has worked with many people to design their personal brands, so she's going to tell us her expert opinion on sort of what are good things to think about when it comes to designing your personal brand.

  Without any further ado, let's bring her on! Come on down, Amy Walters!

  Amy Walters: I love the applause.

  Christine Gritmon: Who doesn't? My goodness. And of course, one fabulous way to warrant applause is to have fabulous branding. So I'm actually going to dive right in with you, Amy.

  A lot of people, when they think about branding, They think about the design elements. They think about a color or, a logo or font treatments, things of that nature.

  But as we were discussing before the show, a brand really is so much more than that. And really a brand is what goes into all of those decisions ultimately. So Amy, as a brand designer, when you're working with someone on designing the visual elements of their branding, what are some of those things that really need to be nailed down first, before you can decide how to represent that brand visually?

  Amy Walters: Yeah, absolutely. It goes so much further than just what looks pretty and what's on trend so what I do with clients is talk to them about their vision for what it is they're doing so whether that's personally or in their business what it is that they are doing And what their vision and their values are and the same for their target audience because that's important too. And once you've got that sort of picture behind the heart of their business, why did they start it?

  What's their passion or their project if it's not a business? And then also what their target audience like to see, then that all feeds into the branding and the visual appearance that has so much more meaning than just, we chose this because it resonated with us on some level because it looked pretty. It gives so much more meaning and that in turn, makes a brand more memorable because we as humans love to put meaning behind things.

  So if we can see why it's been done, we're going to remember it more and we're going to be able to relate more with that brand and that appearance.

  Christine Gritmon: To that point about us, you know, automatically imbuing things with meaning and imbuing colors and shapes and things of that nature with meaning, what are some examples of how that translates into the type of visual branding that you would use? What are some things that we already imbue with meaning that can serve as that sort of shortcut to people for what we stand for?

  Amy Walters: Yeah, so colors that you touched on is a brilliant one for that. There's something called color psychology, which is the psychology behind color. When you see a color How does it make you feel? What does it make you want to do? Is it an encouraging color? And so looking into the color psychology, you can then choose colors that suit your brand your niche your industry, but also that help you to stand out. So there are colors that mean sort of happy, you know happy meanings and there are colors that are perhaps more serious and those things are really worth considering.

  I think it's just it's so interesting when you dive into the psychology behind color and what each and every single one means but also on another level to that. Whilst there are meanings for, if you think the whole of society, they'll see red and that means danger, or they'll see red and that means excitement there are also meanings that are personal to every individual person so you're not going to know what those are. But you might find that your brand really resonates with a particular target client because for them personally the color means something even more than what it would mean for any other person walking down the street.

  So color is a brilliant place to start, and I suppose in a way, one of those shortcuts. Because we all know what colors are, we all know that there are infinite colors and we all know the colors of the rainbow.

  So if we start with colors and how the meaning of the colors link with the meaning of your business and the passion of your business and what you do, then that is a great place to start with your branding.

  Christine Gritmon: Hadn't meant to go this personal this early, but Amy, Purple, Bloom Creative, your company goes with Purple. Tell me how you came to that decision.

  Amy Walters: Yeah, I love the story behind my branding. It's something that I thought a lot about when I started out as a freelancer, I was using colors that I, you know, I liked and they did resonate with me and they had meaning. But actually now that I've gone purple and with Bloom Creative. There's so much more behind that.

  So the story behind the purple is that when I was starting my business, there was a lot of influence of my grandma. My grandma sadly is no longer with us. She passed away in 2014, but she was a creative and she was somebody who I aspire to because she was always giving, she was generous with her time.

  She was so kind and she had the creative side of being an excellent painter and being able to create things out of wool, like knitted that it was just brilliant. So she was super creative. So I looked at the color purple because that was her favorite color. She always wore purple. And then once I dove into it further, I realised that the colour purple has so much more going on in terms of the colour psychology. And it's a colour I'm drawn to, I love the colour purple too.

  And there's no surprise. because something I find that people have with their kind of their brand colors, often they'll choose them. And then when they look at the color psychology afterwards, they'll realize that it's connected somehow with their business and their passions. Probably nine times out of 10, I find that happens.

  And when I've shared on social about it, people comment. So you might find that. So with this color psychology behind purple, there's a lot to do with kind of creativity which makes sense. But there's also something about the color purple, which is it's one of the richest colors that doesn't fade over time.

  And I think that really describes what I do in terms of enhancing people's brands and trying to create brands that don't fade. So it's not a visual brands that will last you a few years, and then you'll have to refresh it or start again, even, but it's a brand that you can start and build from, and it will last you for a huge length of time and be, enhanced and lasting instead of just something quick and simple and not complex and up and out there. But then in a year's time, you realize you want to redo it. So that kind of everlasting purple color really connects with that too. So that's you know the purple side.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that. I love how much meaning you have in there for that purple color choice. And the interesting thing is... Someone else who uses purple may have a totally different meaning behind purple for it, but it also works. I know Julie Catino, who was actually the very first let's talk about brand guest back in 2020.

  Her whole thing is brand twist. It's about getting influences from outside places. And she chose purple because it's a twist of, blue and red or blue and pink. They're the primary colors that are secondary in her brand, but the primary brand color is that secondary purple because it's a twist.

  Oh my goodness, I love it. I chose red because it was my favorite color, but since then I've added the layers of meaning to it about excitement. Excitement and passion and enthusiasm is all my superpower. It works with the retro thing. It's so easy to pull in with, lipstick and accessories.

  There's all sorts of reasons why it works. But the reason I chose it to begin with is just cause it just fit for me. It just resonated. It was something I did naturally and I could add in those elements of meaning later. But it is important to give thought to those things if you're going to really define a brand.

  Which actually brings me to something I really want to discuss with you. A lot of times when we think of branding, when we think of. Not just visual branding, but branding in general, coming up with a brand, what a brand even is. We often think of a consumer brand or, a big B2B company or something of that nature.

  But here at Let's Talk About Brand and in my own work, I'm all about the personal brand and personal branding varies pretty wildly. Some people feel like they do need some sort of visual branding. Some people don't bother with the visual branding. Not everyone has to be, bathed in it like I am.

  First of all, I'm going to ask for your thoughts on visual branding for personal brands, because some people like having a logo. Some people are fine with just a color palette. Some people just like consistency with the overall design. Vibe. What do you feel when it comes to visual branding for personal brands and why it is useful and even why it may not be useful?

  Amy Walters: Yeah, so again you hit kind of the nail on the head in terms of consistency So consistency is one of the things that is really important. I think when it comes to your visual personal branding. So if you do start to use a color palette it's important to stick to that and use it consistently.

  And of course, over time, you can change it if there is reason to, but being consistent and showing up consistently, it's going to be one of those things that makes you a few things. It makes you trustworthy because you show up how people expect you to look and it makes you noticed and remembered. So people see you and they go, Oh yeah, that's you.

  But then also when they need you further down the line, they think I need you. So as an example, I was having a chat, actually with my auntie I don't often see her and we had a chat at a family party recently. And she said, Oh, I nearly got some work your way because I wanted to recommend you because my work were having a rebrand.

  And she said, and I got so excited that I said, I know a purple business who can do that. So for her, as soon as she heard that there was an opportunity for work, she immediately thought of me and my purple business, as she put it. Using your branding consistently, whether that's colours, whether that's fonts, whether that's carousels that look consistently the same and are engaging in design, you will be remembered.

  And then thought of when people need your services. So I think that's a really good pro to having your branding defined. In terms of personal branding, there are, cons if you go a bit too far and you spend too much time perfecting your look, because naturally as humans we are not perfect and you don't want to, as your personal brand look to be the perfect person.

  Because people don't follow that online, they don't want to see the perfect, they want to see the real. So as long as you're balancing that with meaningful branding that works for you, that resonates with you, and then not taking it too far and being too perfect about it, that you either don't post, or you post too infrequently, or, you restrict yourself and your content because of that, then you can create that perfect balance with your personal brand.

  Christine Gritmon: If I may extrapolate from that, from what you're saying, so consistent is better than perfect, but doing it at all is even more important than consistent. You don't have to feel boxed in by the elements that you've defined if they make you unable to be a person.

  Amy Walters: Exactly, absolutely exactly that. It's that kind of balance and the balance you have to keep an eye on all of the time.

  Christine Gritmon: Now, how do you feel about logos for personal brands? Because I know that's a tricky one. At the beginning of my business, I had a logo, I didn't really like it, and I almost never used it. And I have since developed a logo that I love that is literally based on my own signature. It's very close to my own signature and it has the retro vibe, but it took years for me to get to a point where I had something I enjoyed using and that was flexible enough to use also because my old one only kind of worked in a square. How do you feel about personal brands and logos? Do they need them? Do they generally not and what should people consider when considering one of those for their personal brand?

  Amy Walters: Yeah, so I think it changes all of the time per person. So it's definitely an individual answer. So for some people having a logo like yours that's a more signature logo, that works for them because it means they can brand stuff up that Does require a logo, whether that's on a business card or on a website.

  So there are places that logos can be used for personal branding. That being said I think definitely the people i've worked with in terms of personal branding we have chosen to stick more to that sort of signature handwriting style because that feels the most personal. So it makes sense that your logo is based on your signature because that's a very personal approach to a personal branding logo. I think though, with whether or not you should have one, you can do without one.

  So there are a number of social platforms you'll probably be on. If you are on those social platforms, often you'll need a profile picture. And there is a lot of kind of discussion out there as to whether your profile picture should be your photo or should be your logo. But I think we can all agree we're leaning more towards photos, especially when it's personal branding.

  So if you're using your photo and your face, that sort of, I suppose, becomes your logo in that's the face of what you do. And that's what people recognize in the way that a logo might be the face of a business. So there are pros and cons. And like I say, it's completely individualized as to whether a logo would be worth it for you and your personal brand.

  Work it out whether that would be something that you need and why. If you're just doing it to have a logo for logo's sake, probably not the reason.

  Christine Gritmon: I absolutely love what you said about how your face can almost function as the logo. I always encourage that when people are comfortable doing it, especially if they're operating as a service provider or something where the business name is Their name, I'm Christine Gritman, Inc. And so Christine Gritman is the product is the service is what you're getting.

  I'm curious as to how you decided to go with a name for your business with Bloom Creative instead of just going with Amy Walters. How did you make that decision?

  Amy Walters: I actually started as Amy Walters. So when I started freelancing in 2018, I started as Amy Walters, then art and design. And I had two parts of my business and it was all very much me. I then went through some business coaching, around this time last year. So I'm coming up to Bloom Creatives one year birthday.

  So around this time last year, I was coming to the end of my coaching. And in that I had discovered that actually by using my name, I was limiting myself because I was weaving my own identity with my business. And for me as a person that didn't work so well. And I needed a way to express myself creatively in a business that had its own identity, but I could also be Amy Walters, who does her creative hobbies and has her side hustles at the same time.

  But I wasn't always Amy Walters and everything was part of that. So that's why I then started looking at having a name. That's when I added purple in too and bloom comes from the idea that I help businesses to bloom So you start, you know as a bud and then you'll bloom and then you'll be blossoming and I help businesses to bloom And continue to bloom so businesses who are already functioning who are already successful, but perhaps even the businesses are blooming, but their visual identity is as if they've just started out and they need to bring that up to show that they are blooming.

  So it's that kind of thing. That's where bloom came from. And of course creative. I decided because I was Amy Walters, art and design, and that felt that I was even restricting myself further by just art and design, and I wanted to widen it to creatives. So I did start as Amy Walters and I built my brand there and then I changed it about a year ago

  Christine Gritmon: And I also want to go back to something else that you pointed out about branding and personal brands, which is pictures. You're not a brand photographer and I've certainly had some of those on and will continue to, but I imagine that some of the design work you do. With clients, especially for personal brands incorporates photography on some level.

  Do you work with photographers and clients together to figure out what's going to be on brand, what's going to work for the designs that you're doing for them? How does photography beyond the simple basic headshot, factor into the design work that you're able to do or that you love to do for clients, especially when it comes to a personal brand?

  Amy Walters: Personal brand photography is so much more exciting than just your standard headshot. I work with a photographer who does my brand photography and she is brilliant at having those discussions with clients about what is it that you do? Who is it that you are as a person?

  And what do you want to show in these photos? So if I give a personal example, for me, the last photo shoot we had it was my first one since becoming Bloom. So since becoming Purple, and I really wanted to make a thing of that. So I went to Tesco's one evening when all of the flowers are yellow stickered and I bought All of the purple ones and then I got myself some purple paper confetti and I found everything purple I had and of course all of my purple clothing And then I made sure that not only did I include my purple because that was the big thing that I wanted to display But also I included my personality. So we had some photos where my head is poking out from the side of stacked up board games.

  And we were a bit selective where we chose the board games that had some floral element to them so that they worked. But it was to show that part of my personality in being creative is that I love to problem solve and I love to play board games. And I've got tons of flowers at home and I've got a kind of water jug that sprays and I've put on there bloom where you are planted.

  And so of course that works with Bloom Creative. So we had a kind of shot of me spraying that. And that's all the different ways that you can build not only your branding in terms of the purple and the style, but also build in your personality. She is a fab person who I recommend clients to, and she can then draw out a bit further than the stuff that I would say.

  I would give some guidance in terms of perhaps the style of images. And whether they need to be particularly edited or quite natural looking and the kind of lighting and stuff But she would take it and go so much further with the personality side of things weaving that with the design which is just fabulous to see and the results look on brand.

  Christine Gritmon: I love that. Now, when someone is going in to have stuff designed for their personal brand, what are some things that you would typically design for someone's personal brand? What sort of digital assets? I don't know if there are any physical materials, but what are some things, I mean, I know you can run the gamut, but what are the usual things that you recommend someone who is building their personal brand out with a designer have in their design arsenal.

  Amy Walters: So generally it would be the digital stuff. So a website would be something I'd recommend especially if that person as a personal brand, perhaps are representing a few different companies. So they're perhaps the CEO of a company and the director of another, and they've got a passion project and they want somewhere to be themselves in all that they do.

  They might then need a website. And that's something that I would work with them to design and have a website that really encompasses their personal brand and lists all of the things they can do. Perhaps they're a speaker as well. And you know, everything, entrepreneurs tend not to stick to one thing. A website can draw all of that together. In a similar way I would then also recommend something like a set of social media banners So that then their personal brand can be really recognizable on their social profiles. So linkedin is an excellent example of that where you go on someone's page and before you even scroll to read their stuff you see their photo and then you see that banner and making use of that banner space in a really clever design way that is on brand and that shows what you do is something that I think is really important in terms of personal branding.

  Christine Gritmon: Another thing that I just want to point out also on LinkedIn that I know people have noticed on mine recently is that in addition to that banner, And your profile image. You also can choose a handful of highlighted pieces of content, and you can choose, you can upload images to those as well. It might be a website link to something.

  And maybe there's a default image that goes in there. You can override that and upload an image of your own. So that's just yet another opportunity you have to really drive that visual branding home on something like a LinkedIn profile.

  Amy Walters: Absolutely.

  Christine Gritmon: So what are some other things that people should be looking at? You mentioned social. Do you do templates for people? Do you help people with that? And what sort of things do people tend to need in that regard?

  Amy Walters: Templates are something that they save time and they help you to look consistent. So it comes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of that consistency balanced with not being perfect. If you've got a template, it's ready to go and you can fill it in. So quite often either on LinkedIn or Instagram, you'll share a carousel, perhaps of top tips or of a client testimony or something like that.

  You can then use those templates. So yes, I'll design templates for clients for those kinds of things. And we'll look at what content they share regularly that can be templated and then what content perhaps can't be templated and then we'll look at some brand guidelines around those which is the phrase for a document full of ways in which to use certain colors, certain fonts, some do's and don'ts but that there's obviously flexibility because social media again does not need to be absolutely perfect.

  So yeah, templates is a brilliant one.

  Christine Gritmon: How much flexibility should people have generally? Again, no hard and fast rules, but generally speaking, I know a lot of us have heard about design guidelines, brand guidelines, and it's good to have some of those. But what do you recommend people define as part of their visual branding and how tightly should they define it?

  I know some people have whole color palettes, some people have one color. What do you like to do with people when it comes to defining a personal brand's design guidelines?

  Amy Walters: So defining colors is important, and I think being self aware of how much creativity and creative license you like to have for yourself can help you decide how many brand colors to have. So you might be someone who has one or two, or you might be someone who has a batch of additional colors.

  Secondary tertiary colors that you can dip in and out of so that if you perhaps get a bit bored. I think creatives do have the tendency. So if you are a creative with a personal brand, sometimes have the tendency to get a bit bored with doing the same thing. Then you can dip into those secondary, those tertiary colors.

  Having that awareness about yourself can help you to build a personal brand that works for you and isn't restricted. And I'd also include. fonts in personal branding and that just helps with consistency. If you're always changing up your fonts, you run the risk of looking probably a little bit more amateur than you are.

  And you're not going to be recognized quite so much because people will see you appearing differently every time. And again, that could break some of that trust because you're not appearing how they expect to see you. But outside of colors and fonts, you can go as deeply as looking at exactly the style of images and the style of videos you create, and even the transitions that you use.

  But if you're consistently showing up with your colors and your fonts, I would say that's where you need to really stick to. And then the other stuff, you can have some flexibility. But knowing what you need as a person when you're designing stuff or what you need when you're sharing stuff, if you have a designer do it for you is really helpful to then know how much flexibility to give yourself in those guidelines or to tell your designer to give you in those guidelines.

  Christine Gritmon: Around how many colors and fonts do you recommend defining as part of that style guide? Again, for a personal brand, so it's not going to be a huge consumer corporate brand that maybe has as many applications for it as a personal brand may, but at the same time, just one font, just one color, what do you think is a good kind of family to have in there?

  Amy Walters: When it comes to fonts, I often suggest two. So I have, it's a strange connection, but it works to remember it. Two in one shampoo and conditioner, I say have no more than two fonts in one design because then it becomes overwhelming. So likewise in your branding, if you're smaller and not that huge corporate entity, then you can have that two fonts in one brand.

  And so that helps you then to not. To not look too busy to not have too many things going on to not have too much to choose from and help with your consistency and those two fonts generally, you would expect one to perhaps be a bit more bold and used as titles or kind of the hook of a post and then the other to be more perhaps sans serif or which doesn't have all those fancy lines sticking out of the letters.

  So it's very clean and use that for perhaps paragraph text or going into more detail. And that not only helps to get attention with the first font but it also helps when a user is looking at your carousels. They're able to see the top points that are in bold that are the different font and they can see that immediately and go.

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with all of that or oh, That makes sense Oh i'm learning something new and then they get to one and they might want to read a bit more. They can then see the smaller cleaner font underneath and go there to read more. So two fonts as a general rule for personal branding would work well for most people. And then when it comes to colours, again, I would say one or two as a main colour.

  Quite often you'll see people using a single colour, like you and your red, and me and my purple. But then I don't know about you with your red, but I have a few shades of my purple. And then I have some very tertiary colours that kind of come into play that are yellows and oranges and blues. So that if I do need the colours of the rainbow, I've got ones that I default to.

  So you could have your kind of main one or two, and then a... few, perhaps up to five of the secondary ones. But again, it's so hard without individualizing it to have a hard and fast rule.

  Christine Gritmon: Absolutely. I gave a lot of thought to this myself, especially in 2020 in August, 2020, I got a little more serious with defining my visual brand. I looked at. So many combinations of kind of that showy font and that secondary font before I came to these ones. And I defined my shade of red.

  My shade of red is one specific shade of red, but my secondary colors are really just black and white. I'm about to start mixing in some tertiary brand colors. Simply because, I am me, and I feel like a human brand should evolve and follow the person. And there have been a couple colors I've been wearing a lot of lately.

  I've gotten very into dark blue, and I've gotten into this kind of, golden tan color. And those both look good with red. So stay tuned for that. folks. A little bit of that mixed in with the red and black and white of the classic Coca Cola whatnot look.

  Amy Walters: And I love that. And it goes to show that a personal brand isn't necessarily defined and then you have to have it forever. It can grow with you.

  Christine Gritmon: Yeah, so I actually, I think that's the last thing I want to ask you about, which is personal brand... Evolutions how can you, how do you work with people to evolve a brand so that they're not entirely starting from scratch, they are building on that existing brand equity, maybe when they started out, they just did it themselves and they're realizing they want to step it up and work with an actual designer and you don't want to just, ruin every, trash everything they've done before and start from scratch.

  What are some things to keep in mind when evolving a brand?

  Amy Walters: So I define this as a brand refresh as opposed to a redesign because I think redesign makes it sound like you are starting from scratch, whereas a refresh is bringing in some new feel to what is already there. I think it's important always to consider what people already know you as and see you as.

  And so when I work with clients in a brand refresh kind of way We'll look first at what they've got already We'll look at why we've got those things already if there is a reason And then we'll look at what it is that their target audience or their current clients know them for and that will help us to know what to keep and what to change And then when it comes to evolving that Often, if there isn't meaning, definitely if there isn't meaning behind those colours or the branding itself, we will add that meaning in, and that might come with a few colour changes or shades of colour changes.

  But it all comes from a place of meaning, and so it grows as the kind of personal brand has grown.

  And building out your network and changing things, then we can look at how the design can evolve to match that and have that same passion and meaning behind it.

  So there'll be some things that perhaps an icon will stay, but the way the icon looks will be updated or we'll change the icon altogether, but we'll keep the style of font. I worked with a client who had a kind of Korean calligraphy style of font because of where he grew up and because of what his kind of business name was it made sense that we kept that But instead of keeping there's a very limited number of korean calligraphy fonts available, what we then did was make him one.

  So I designed one from scratch that kind of was reflective of that style. And then he had a very updated, more modern looking, clean looking font for his logo. But he looked the same to somebody who had seen him before or worked with him before. They still knew that was him and his brand.

  Christine Gritmon: Ah, I love all of this, Amy. I could geek out on this forever with you. For anyone else who would like to geek out with you, Amy, please tell the good folks at home where they can find you, why they should find you and what they will find there.

  Amy Walters: So I am mostly active on LinkedIn, so I'd recommend finding me on there. I am Amy Walters, and if you type in bloom creative that might help you find me there too. I'm the purple one if you hadn't already guessed from the discussion we had. If you want to find me on Instagram, it's at bloom.creative.uk. And then my website is bloom-creative.co.Uk. And what you'll find there is more of this kind of chat. Looking into tips and stuff around design and branding. A little bit of AI now too. And you can sign up to email newsletters and stuff if you would like to get even more.

  Christine Gritmon: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Amy. It has been a pleasure.

  Amy Walters: Thank you for having me.

  Christine Gritmon: And thank you for listening to Let's Talk About Brand. Whether you are listening to us on your podcast player of choice, or if you're watching the video podcast, hi, over on YouTube. Either way, please do subscribe, please leave a review if you liked it, and please do come back next week when I'll be here talking to another smart guest expert about a different element of personal branding.

  Bye!

S4 Ep04: Let's Talk About Social Selling

How do you feel about selling in your business? If the very thought makes you feel ‘ick’, then you are not alone.

But what if there was another way to sell in your business? One that was more personal and made the sale easier? What if, by building a strong personal brand, you could make more sales in your business? Would that make selling easier? Then tune into to today’s episode as I talk to my friend Tim Hughes all about the power of social selling, which is rooted in your ability to have a strong personal brand.

Tim talks to us about how people are buying from people which means that ultimately they are buying from people that they know, like, and trust (shout out to Bob Berg). So it’s our goal to show the world that we are not just another salesperson and we are going to do that by leveraging social media. And Tim will give us some ideas on how we can do just that.

Tune in as we explore: 

[00:00] Welcome Tim Hughes

[03:31] What is the problem with the approach that most people make with sales today? And how can that be solved?

[07:12] What should your personal brand (on social media) look like? How does having a personal brand work with or replace a buyer’s need to search for information? Why do we trust people’s opinions over research (in some cases)?

[15:49] People want an experience that is rent-free. Meaning that they want to connect with you, but not end up in a funnel or a sales cycle. So how can companies position their salespeople in a way that their customers go to them and not directly to the company?

[21:32] What kind of content should you be using to create a strong personal brand primed for social selling?

[26:55] How can companies create programs that encourage the development of personal brands?

[29:02] What are Tim’s thoughts about using email lists? And how can you protect your brand from the constant changes in social media platforms?

[34:20] Can this approach be scalable? And should it be?

Contact Tim Hughes:
Website: DLA Ignite
Linkedin: Timothy Hughes
Book: Social Selling Techniques to Influence Buyers and Changemakers

S4 Ep03: Let's Talk About Branding with Books

Have you ever wanted to write a book?

This week’s episode has the goods on personal branding and book publishing.

If you've been considering writing a book as part of your overall personal brand strategy, what do you need to consider? Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you do that? How can you make sure that this book that you're going to put all sorts of time, energy, effort, and thought into, is actually going to be something that helps your career in the way that you want it to?

Mindy Gibbins-Klein, a.k.a. The Book Midwife, has helped hundreds of people get their books out of their heads and onto the page⏤and ideally, into the hands of people who can benefit from those books and from those ideas. Mindy is the author of "The Thoughtful Leader," and that title really sums up the various work that she does⏤not only in book coaching, but in leadership consulting as well.

Tune in as we chat about:
[01:42] Is publishing easier or harder these days?
[06:18] Where should people be personally or professionally before they decide to write a book, especially as it relates to a personal brand?
[08:59] Is there a good (or bad) reason to write a book? What should your motivators be?
[10:39] What are some ways that writing a book can be part of an overall personal branding strategy?
[16:51] What commonalities are seen in books that are well leveraged within personal brands?
[28:18] How did writing a book impact Mindy’s own career?
[33:37] What are some things you should consider before starting to write your book?

Contact Mindy Gibbins-Klein:
Book Midwife
MindyGK

S4 Ep02: Let's Talk About Branding and AI with Chris Carr

One thing I love about this show that happens to me frequently is that the interview essentially turns into a private consulting session for me (that’s how good the information is!)

So today’s topic I have avoided as long as I could and it is now at the point where I can’t ignore it anymore (especially as the social platforms are starting to incorporate it to). 

Today I am talking with Chris Carr about the impact of Artificial Intelligence and Branding. Chris is a rising thought leader specifically in AI and is the co-founder and head of Farotek, a digital marketing agency that really has leveraged AI and AI's impact on SEO. 

Today we are diving into AI and branding. I'm big on personal branding, but as we discussed today, when it comes to AI, you get out what you put in. We talk about how you can use AI as a partner and as a tool that does not replace the human side. We're also going to get into some big issues right now with the fast growth of AI regarding what content can be used to train the AI, how thought leaders can approach it, and how it changes the rules of the game when it comes to SEO.

Let’s dive in!

Tune in as we talk about:

[03:29] How is Artificial Intelligence (AI) defined?
[05:18] Can AI be trained to sound like you and your brand? What is the best way to train it? Is AI a utility for my brand? Chris tells us what chat priming is and the right and wrong ways to do it.[11:36] How do you use the AI to know more about your audience?
[13:21] We all know that the information found on the internet is not reliable. So what information is being fed into these AI tools to teach them? Can we rely on it?
[17:34] Can we protect our thought leadership from feeding the AI and eventually from informing our competition?
[20:49] How is AI impacting SEO performance on content creation?
[23:08] Chatbots are a rudimentary AI. Some things that Chris has seen would blow your mind![25:31] Will AI replace humans?
[27:07] What are three ways brands can get started using AI to help them with their branding efforts?

Connect with Chris Carr:

Company: Farotech
Podcast: Digital Marketing Masterclass Podcast

Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
Spark Toro
Buzz Sumo
BARD by Google
ChatGPT
Claude.ai
Pie
Paul Rotor - Marketing AI Institute
Let's Talk About Brand Episode with Andy Crestedina

S4 Ep01: Let's Talk About Becoming The Brand with Jack Appleby

Welcome to the Season 4 premiere of Let’s Talk About Brand! 

I’ve been talking to today’s guest for a couple of years now about coming on the program–and I have to say, it's a much more interesting story now than it would have been when we first started talking about having him on. He has done so much more with his personal brand! We can’t wait to share with you the lessons he’s learned along the way.

If you are part of #MarketingTwitter, you definitely know his name. And I, for one, happen to love how he shows up with a point of view that he can back up with experience.

I am excited to welcome Jack Appleby!

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[01:43] Welcome Jack Appleby!
[04:41] When working to build a personal brand, an important thing to remember is that you want to freely share your insights to build a community that will help you establish a strong personal brand.
[06:21]  How did Jack develop from a horribly socially anxious kid to leading a community of followers who feel connected to him?
[08:48] What was the moment when Jack realized what he was building could create bigger opportunities for himself (and the companies he worked for)?
[15:02] Jack never started out to be a content creator, when was he ready to take the leap and become one?
[17:22] How did Jack have the confidence to take over Future Social from Morning Brew?
[23:23] The internet can be a terrible place, so how does Jack prevent it from holding him back? What advice does he have for younger marketers who are starting to build their brands on social media?
[25:59] Jack Appleby: Basketball star?? What lessons has Jack brought with him to build a completely different kind of audience?
[34:13] What three things does Jack recommend you do to grow your LinkedIn community?

Connect with Jack Appleby:

Twitter:  Jack Appleby
Newsletter: Future Social

S3 Ep42: Let's Talk About Brand Season Finale with Pat Flynn

It’s the season 3 finale of Let’s Talk About Brand, we have a very special guest, Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income. Pat is a perfect example, not only of a strong personal brand but also as someone who has parlayed that personal brand into a company, SPI Media. Then entered a new endeavor with his building of a community all around Pokémon of all things seemingly not connected to his previous work, but as you'll hear, there are connections indeed. I am really excited for today's show. You're going to hear a lot about Pat's own journey and a lot of really actionable lessons that you can use as well in building your brand, building your business, and building your community.

Pat Flynn is a successful entrepreneur. He believes that passive income is achievable through upfront work and strategic automation. Pat has a diverse portfolio of passive income sources, including books, online courses, workshops, and YouTube channel revenue.

Tune in as we talk about:
[00:00] Introductions
[02:21] Let’s clarify this, what is passive income (and what is it not)?
[04:00] Learn more about some of Pat’s income streams
[06:45] What was Pat Flynn’s first entrepreneurial venture?
[10:26] How did Pat start to build his personal brand?
[14:47] How did Pat move his personal brand into a company brand?
[21:46] Pat tells us about the development of Deep Pocket Monster.
[19:00] What does Kimmy look for in the brands that she wants to invest in?
[22:01] We talk about why Kimmy started her own skincare line rather than invest in one and what the experience of launching a new brand was like.
[28:22] Kimmy gives three pieces of advice to someone looking to build a new brand.

Connect with Pat Flynn:

Website: https://www.smartpassiveincome.com/
Newsletter: https://www.smartpassiveincome.com/#unstuck

S3 Ep41: Let's Talk About Branding with from Within with Kimmy Scotti

Regardless of which type of brand you are building, you are ultimately building a brand to resonate with people. Understanding those people and what will resonate with them is a hugely important part of branding. And today's guest, Kimmy Scotti has built brands from her own personal interests and as an investor in other people's brands.

Today we're gonna talk about what goes into brand building, what you really need to know if you're going to be building a brand, what the important elements of her brand are, and what she looks for as an investor.

Today’s guest is Kimmy Scotti. She is the co-founder of Fig.1, serial entrepreneur and venture capitalist, is a self-ascribed skincare obsessive. She is also a founding partner at 8VC where she focuses on consumer and healthcare investments.

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[03:34] On a personal level, what are some brands that were part of Kimmy’s earliest experiences with brand affinity?
[05:43] Kimmy tells us about the accidental way she started her jewelry business at the age of 15.
[10:01] How did Kimmy become an investor and start 8VC?
[14:23] When you are highly creative how do you learn when to step in or stay out of a brand you are investing in?
[16:21] How does Kimmy advise on brands that are not in her area of expertise?
[19:00] What does Kimmy look for in the brands that she wants to invest in?
[22:01] We talk about why Kimmy started her own skincare line rather than invest in one and what the experience of launching a new brand was like.
[28:22] Kimmy gives three pieces of advice to someone looking to build a new brand.

Connect with Kimmy Scotti:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimmyscotti/
Website: https://fig-1.co/

S3 Ep40: Let's Talk About Branding with Consciousness with Jonathan Trimble

In this episode I am speaking with Jonathan Trimble, founder of And Rising, to discuss the topic of conscious brands. Jonathan shares insights from And Rising's work in the consciousness space, ensuring both positive impact and founder well-being. We delve into the importance of a brand's consciousness and how it relates to consumer self-identity. The conversation highlights the shift in brand storytelling, with an increased focus on product origins and sustainability. We also discuss the focus that brands must have on putting functionality first for eco-friendly products and the need to offer superior alternatives. Jonathan emphasizes the importance of providing opportunities for consumers to engage with brands beyond purchasing products. He also shares his hope for a future where regenerative business models dominate. The episode wraps up by talking about the challenges faced by founders in maintaining their well-being and balancing their mission with self-care and how And Rising is helping. 

Today’s guest is Jonathan Trimble. As the founder of And Rising he promotes companies that prioritize sustainability and eco-friendliness. He is drawn to businesses providing alternatives that are more regenerative and environmentally conscious compared to existing options. Additionally, he seeks to support startup founders well-being to help them create stronger companies. 

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[02:49] Jonathan tells us about what And Rising is all about and what conscious branding and conscious companies mean to them.
[07:09]  How do brands drive consumption of their products while also framing it as something that will actually is making a perceptible difference in the world?
[10:15] How does And Rising make sure that the brands they are working with aren't just talking the talk, but are actually walking the walk of consciousness as a brand?
[15:08] How much of the operational details should be shared with the consumer when marketing and branding a conscious brand?
[19:28] How do companies make sure they don't niche down too far into only the most hardcore consumers with their messaging?
[20:36] What are some ways that brands can get consumers engaged that don’t include purchasing?
[25:51] How do founders of conscious brands differ from ordinary founders?[29:19] How does And Rising work with founders to make sure that they're not just making the world a better place, but that they're able to be in a good place in the world as well?

Connect with Jonathan Trimble:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trimblejonathan/
Website: https://andrising.com/

S3 Ep39: Let's Talk About Branding with Action with Tamsen Webster

It's one thing for you to tell people what your brand is, who you are, what you're about, but it's another thing to show it. And showing it is really what people actually care about. Because let’s face it consumers have pretty sensitive bullshit detector in this stage of capitalism, shall we say. So it's more important than ever for brands to make sure that they are walking the talk and not just using it as a branding tool.

Today we are having a fantastic conversation about how your brand's core beliefs drive the behaviors that in turn drive your brand. 

Today’s guest is Tamsen Webster. Tamsen is part keynote speaker, part message strategist -- and all about building big ideas. She has combined 20 years in marketing, 13 years as a Weight Watchers leader, and four years as a TEDx Executive Producer into a simple way to change how people see, and what they do as a result.

Tune in as we talk about:

[03:12] What is a brand?
[04:29]  What are some of those actions that companies take that give people these experiences that inform the brand impression?
[07:31] Are we expecting too much of brands today? Especially as we seem to anthropomorphize them so much more.
[17:16] How do brands really speak to their audience without it feeling like they are trying to hard to “fit in” with them?
[22:36] How can companies make sure that the actions they are taking to create their brand and impression are actually going to create that impression that they hope for?
[34:08]  In conclusion, what question does Tamsen’s personal brand answer? How does it answer it? And what are your beliefs that drive what behaviors that drive what brand?

Connect with Tamsen Webster here:

Website: Tamsen Webster

S3 Ep38: Let's Talk About Branding with Influencers with Yash Chavan

Today is all about branding with influencers. If used properly, influencer marketing can be an incredible tool to help build your brand. Or if you want to be an influencer, it can be an incredible part of your personal brand. But whether you are the influencer creator or you're the consumer brand who is working with them, you have to be really, really careful to make sure that that influencer marketing partnership is going to build both brands in the right way. 

Today’s guest is Yash Chavan, the founder of SARAL: The Best Influencer Marketing Tool on the Planet right now.

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[02:48] How do you define an influencer?
[04:08] How can you tell if somebody has influence if its not about follower count?
[05:48] What are the similarities and differences between having a personal brand and having influence?
[07:32] What are some things to consider when deciding what will bring value to your audience? 
[10:06] If you have a brand that has an engaged audience but not a buying audience, what should those brands look at to change that?
[13:05] What are some things that a creator brand should evaluate before deciding whether or not to work with a particular consumer brand, especially when it comes to brand fit?
[15:25] So what are some things that a brand should look at to make sure that the influencer that they’re approaching is a good fit for the brand?
[19:33] Is it better to work with an influencer that has an audience that fits your consumer or to reach out to an influencer who has an audience that is similar but might not be a perfect fit?
[22:50] What are your thoughts about companies developing their own influencers?
[24:54] A summary of the six-step influencer framework. 

Connect with Yash Chavan here:

Website: SARAL

S3 Ep37: Let's Talk About Brand Conversation with Brooke Sellas

This week's conversation about brand conversations was a really, really great conversation. Our guest, Brooke Sellas, literally wrote the book on brand conversations, and this is such an important part of both customer care and brand impression.

We talked about different ways that those conversations can take place, whether it is in public, on social media, on dark social, or one-on-one. We talk about the team that you should have in place and how you should prepare them to make sure that those conversations put the best foot possible forward for your brand, and we delved into emerging technologies such as Chat and AI when it comes to customer conversations.  

You won’t want to miss this conversation about conversations.

Today’s guest is Brooke B. Sellas. She is the founder and CEO of B Squared Media LLC, which is a social-first marketing agency that has a special focus on customer care. She is also the author of the book Conversations That Connect.

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[02:40] How did conversations become the focus?
[05:47] Should the social media team be separate from the customer care team and even the sales team?
[07:39] What are the different types of conversation that happen with brands on social?
[11:51] Is social media a sales channel or a branding channel?
[13:59] Should social media managers be trained in sales or should companies have sales teams that step into social conversations?
[18:30] What are Brooke’s feelings about the use of chatbots and AI in brand conversations?
[22:45] When should brands step into conversations found through social listening?
[24:57] In Brooke’s opinion where should conversations take place on dark social or in public?
[26:39] What are some of the common things that brands are missing and what should they be taking advantage of in conversations?

Connect with Brook Sellas here:

Website: B Squared Media 
Book: Conversations that Connect
Workbook: Social Listening Guide
Podcast: The CX Engine Show
Podcast: The Marketing Agency Show

S3 Ep36: Let's Talk About Branding and Culture with Dr. Marcus Collins

Do you know what Beyonce, Jesus Christ, and Patagonia have in common? 

They all have brands that have shaped the culture that surrounds them. 

In today’s branding conversation, I am talking to Dr. Marcus Collins. We talk about what your brand needs to do if you want to fit into a certain cultural framework, and especially if you want to smash it and really forge your own path within the culture.

Today’s guest is Dr. Marcus Collins, he studies cultural contagion and meaning-making to help bridge the academic-practitioner gap for marketers who aim to put ideas in the world that inspire people to take action. 

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[02:41] How do we define culture?
[05:05] How do the disciplines of sociology, anthropology, and psychology bring context and insight to a marketer?
[09:31] How can brands balance taking cultural context into consideration but also stand out in the market?
[14:29] How can brands let go of trying to get the cultural context right for everyone and focus on those that their message is for?
[21:29] What are some key factors that enable a brand to transcend and almost become a culture unto itself?
[21:21] What is social contagion? How can brands learn for it to leverage its influence?

Connect with Dr. Marcus Collins here:

Website: MarcToTheC
Book: For the Culture
Find on socials @Marctothec

S3 Ep35: Let's Talk About Empowered Branding with Tigz Rice

Is there a connection between boudoir photography and branding photography? You bet there is!

They both require you to be both vulnerable and confident enough to show up in your own way!

Stepping into the spotlight of your own personal brand can be a very empowering activity, and it really does involve empowering yourself with a certain amount of fearlessness to show up as your true self, to bring your personality into it and to just really say here’s who I am, here’s what I stand for and what I am all about.

But how does that empowerment come across in your brand photography? Tune in to find out.

Today’s guest is Tigz Rice, a UK-based Empowering Portrait Photographer, who helps fearless humans re/connect with their bodies & feel empowered, confident & unapologetically present in both their personal and professional adventures. 

Tune in as we talk about:

[03:03] How did Tigz become an empowerment photographer?
[06:16] People tend to have mental blocks when it comes to showing up as our true selves, how can a photographer work with you through that? Or does the work need to be done first? 
[08:23] What is it about capturing our image that freaks people out so much?
[09:26] How a photograph express the why as a person or their business?
[11:39] What is the difference between a headshot and a branding photo?
[13:07] How should you prepare for a branding shoot?
[15:40] What is a lifestyle shoot and why should you have one for your personal brand?
[19:37] How is the act of showing up in a different way for our brand photography, empowering?
[21:09] How can you use the images from a branding shoot?
[23:26] What are ways that you can bring personal elements into a branding shoot that won’t muddy your message?
[21:09] How can you use the images from a branding shoot?
[31:28] What is one tip that you would give people to help them through that process and get a little closer to being able to show up in that way?

Connect with Tigz here:

Website: Tigz Rice (you will find all her socials here)

S3 Ep34: Let's Talk About Branding and Persuasion with Jason Harris

Is your brand persuasive? What does that even look like? Do you know what elements your brand needs to have to be persuasive? If you’re not sure then you’re in the right place. Today we’re talking about what persuasion is, what it means, and what branding has to do with your ability to persuade.

Today’s guest is Jason Harris, author of the book, the Soulful Art of Persuasion, host of the podcast Soul & Science, and CEO of Mekanism

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[02:56] Jason defines for us what persuasion is. 
[05:21] The art of persuasion has changed over the years. What does it look like now?
[06:52] People hate ads but love brands. What does that mean for you and your brand?
[10:18] How is your brand’s soul connected to persuasion and branding?
[14:08] How can you communicate to buyers that your brand is tied to a purpose and not just looking to make more money?
[18:00] How do you take your company from being one that has a soul and a purpose to make that a brand that people can truly connect with?
[22:09] What does your brand need to be persuasive?
[23:58] If your brand is failing to catch, do you know where to look?
[27:08] Jason and I both define brand.

Connect with Jason here:

Website: Mekanism
Podcast: Soul and Science
Book: The Soulful Art of Persuasion

S3 Ep33: Let's Talk About Branding Your Offer with Janine Coombes

Presumably, your brand is supporting an actual business, and that business has offerings, whether it be products or services. But what are those offerings? How do you make sure that they are supporting your brand? And how do you make sure that your brand is supporting them? How do you put together an offer that gets you where you need to go? How do you make sure it is an offer that you can actually sell?

Today we're gonna be talking with sales and marketing coach Janine Coombes, who specializes in offerings.

Tune in as we talk about:

[00:00] Introductions
[2:23] How Janine got started with helping people define their offers.
[5:48] Why is it important to niche down?
[8:01] How do you find out more about your audience and what they really need?
[12:25] Let’s talk about pricing your offer!
[19:14] Once you have an offer, how do you make sure it sells?
[22:33] How do you put your brand into an offer so you can stand out from others offering the same thing?

Connect with Janine here:

LinkedIn
Website

S3 Ep32: Let's Talk About Building Your Brand Through Speaking with Bri Williams

On this episode of Chat About Brand, we dive into the world of speaking engagements as a means of building your brand. Our guest, Bri Williams, a speaker coach, shares valuable insights on how to know you are ready to take the stage and take it from something you do occasionally to actually building a sustainable business. 

We discuss the importance of having a signature talk, understanding your audience, and picking a topic you're passionate about. We also touch on the symbiotic relationship between speaking and branding, building relationships, and creating marketing assets such as headshots and bios. Join us as we explore the world of speaking and how it can help elevate your brand.

Bri Williams is a speaker coach. She works with professionals who are ready to leverage speaking to get to that next level in their career visibility. And she also works with entrepreneurs to build speaking businesses.

Listen in to learn:

[0:00] Introductions
[3:40] How did speaking become Bri’s business?
[5:49] How do you know you are ready for a speaking career?
[9:56] How do you focus your talk so you don’t overwhelm your audience?
[13:07] Why you should be marketing your business by speaking
[13:59] How do you focus your efforts to find your signature talk and turn speaking into your business?
[19:15] How do you make sure that the speaking you are doing is actually building your business (and not harming it)?
[23:18] What assets do you need to have in place to begin speaking?
[25:28] What are two things that people commonly struggle with when they start speaking?

Connect with Bri here:

LinkedIn
Website